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"Yardz" New User yardz@verizon.net Sep 12, 2006, 5:05 PM Post #1 of 107(267 views) Shortcut home game ruling Can't Post This group has been playing together once a month for right about a year. It is a very social gathering but some pretty good card playing does occur. We play a very straight forward but sometimes loose game. By loose I mean there is some table talk like "what did you have" and it is even common to see the "what if" cards after hands are folded to someone, things like that. BUT I will say we try to be by the book as much as possible. We are even very loose on things to new players as we welcome any and all levels of player. If we feel a move or action was made by mistake we will normally let it be corrected once or twice. So...this past week a newcomer joins us. You know the type...constantly calling the action, takes it upon himself to push the pot to the winner, even tries to fold hands of people that got up to get a drink (we usually give the guy a few minutes to grab a drink or something, but if he is otherwise occupied in the latrene or on the phone or something like that then fold it is), and and the worst thing HE TOUCHED MY CHIPS more than once. Newbie was pretty much taking it upon himself to run OUR game...BAD MOVE! It didn't put the table on tilt or anything that drastic, but I will say it put a target on his chest. Anyway...one hand gets heads up with him and another player. Newbie is faced with calling an all-in move for most of his chips. He ponders and ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone says "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call you instantly", then tables his cards face up. FIREWORKS ENSUED! Now...remember we do play a friendly game and angle shooting is not looked upon as something friendly in this group. So, his verbal announcement was interpreted as he was folding and the dealer (not in the hand) pushes the pot to the the all-in. Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. But we make it clear that your verbal announcement is your move no matter what. The entire group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly because of the obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. Newbie goes tilty and proceeds to get knocked out some time later. And by the way...newbie had the winning hand...the all-in player showed his hand after being asked by newbie...wow was he heated now! I am interested to hear other's opinions on this. No Karma

"FaceDownAcesUp" New User superbeef00@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 5:13 PM Post #2 of 107(267 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post lol. That dude sounds like a douche. I would have declared the hand folded and then cracked a beer bottle over his head for giggles. No Karma

Peg Smith New User PegSmithNow@aol.comnojunk Sep 12, 2006, 6:37 PM Post #3 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote: > He ponders and >ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone says >"if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call >you instantly", then tables his cards face up. FIREWORKS ENSUED! That's just ridiculous. He still hadn't said whether he was going to call or fold, and what the hell's wrong with trying to elicit a reaction? Peg No Karma

"Bronzedodger" New User a686ed@webnntp.invalid Sep 12, 2006, 6:39 PM Post #4 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post > I am interested to hear other's opinions on this. He should be pointed to this thread and then asked if he wants to join the fun, or not be invited in the future. Maybe he's a great guy, but if he doesn't fit the game the 13 veterans want to play, I'd just stick with unlucky 13. -----  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Join Titan Poker" New User jointitanpoker@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 6:55 PM Post #5 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Like many rulings in poker, there are excuses that can engineer the outcome however you want if you go by Robert''s Rules, really. And of course, if all else fails, there's the the loophole rule: "Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling." > So, his verbal announcement was > interpreted as he was folding and the dealer (not in the hand) pushes the > pot to the the all-in. Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he > is faced with an all-in heads up. Too bad, because Robert's Rules states: "You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it." He threw it in front of him face up, the dealer killed it. He failed to protect his cards, he has no redress if the dealer swipes them. > I am interested to hear other's opinions on this. My opinion is a big ho-hum. If the dealer hadn't killed the hand, I would have just shrugged. But since the dealer killed the hand, and the 'management' agreed, that's it. No Karma

"Yardz" New User yardz@verizon.net Sep 12, 2006, 7:02 PM Post #6 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Then how do you interpret his actions? "if this were a real game I would call" followed by tossing his cards face up onto the table. Nothing is wrong with trying to elicit a reaction, that is definately part of the game. The manner in which he did it is what is in question. "Peg Smith" <PegSmithNow@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message news:ejdeg25ldhtulefe4v7r2icsmhrnku6bp0@4ax.com... > "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote: > >> He ponders and >>ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone >>says >>"if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call >>you instantly", then tables his cards face up. FIREWORKS ENSUED! > > That's just ridiculous. He still hadn't said whether he was going to > call or fold, and what the hell's wrong with trying to elicit a > reaction? > > Peg No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 7:04 PM Post #7 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:02:29 GMT, "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote: >Then how do you interpret his actions? "if this were a real game I would >call" followed by tossing his cards face up onto the table. > >Nothing is wrong with trying to elicit a reaction, that is definately part >of the game. The manner in which he did it is what is in question. What was the question? -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 7:27 PM Post #8 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Yardz wrote: > Anyway...one hand gets heads up with him and another player. Newbie is > faced with calling an all-in move for most of his chips. He ponders and > ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone says > "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call > you instantly", then tables his cards face up. I wouldn't interpret that as a fold. If I were on the moon, I would eat cheese instantly. Do I want to eat this cheese here? I didn't say. > FIREWORKS ENSUED! > Now...remember we do play a friendly game and angle shooting is not looked > upon as something friendly in this group. So, his verbal announcement was > interpreted as he was folding and the dealer (not in the hand) pushes the > pot to the the all-in. Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he > is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. But we make it > clear that your verbal announcement is your move no matter what. The entire > group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly because of the > obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. Newbie goes tilty > and proceeds to get knocked out some time later. And by the way...newbie > had the winning hand...the all-in player showed his hand after being asked > by newbie...wow was he heated now! I'd let the guy still call if he wanted to at this point. If you don't like him, then don't invite him back. No Karma

"Yardz" New User yardz@verizon.net Sep 12, 2006, 7:42 PM Post #9 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post I love this group. And don't take that the wrong way...really! There was not a question (verb)...I said his actions were "in question". see the following: question [kwes-chuhn] -noun 4. a subject of dispute or controversy. or -idiom 19. in question, a. under consideration. b. in dispute. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. "Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote in message news:q7feg2tph5dm19ne43os8po73v73eoj0d9@4ax.com... > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:02:29 GMT, "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote: > >>Then how do you interpret his actions? "if this were a real game I would >>call" followed by tossing his cards face up onto the table. >> >>Nothing is wrong with trying to elicit a reaction, that is definately part >>of the game. The manner in which he did it is what is in question. > > What was the question? > > -- > > Dr Zen > King of the wild pixels. > http://gollyg.blogspot.com begin 666 thinsp.png MB5!.1PT*&@H````-24A$4@````(````$" 8```"D[^XY````!F)+1T0`_P#_ M`/^@O:>3````"7!(67,```L3```+$P$`FIP8````!W1)344'U@(#$08U?<L# M_@```!9)1$%4>-IC_/__/P,#`P,#$P,48#(`9DX#!9Z@R"T`````245.1*Y" "8((` ` end No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 8:12 PM Post #10 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:42:53 GMT, "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote: >I love this group. And don't take that the wrong way...really! > >There was not a question (verb)...I said his actions were "in question". >see the following: > >question [kwes-chuhn] >-noun > 4. a subject of dispute or controversy. > >or >-idiom > 19. in question, a. under consideration. > b. in dispute. > > > Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) > Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. >2006. Yes, what was the question his actions were in? -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 8:14 PM Post #11 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On 12 Sep 2006 16:27:25 -0700, "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> wrote: >Yardz wrote: >> Anyway...one hand gets heads up with him and another player. Newbie is >> faced with calling an all-in move for most of his chips. He ponders and >> ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone says >> "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call >> you instantly", then tables his cards face up. > >I wouldn't interpret that as a fold. > It's a clear fold. >If I were on the moon, I would eat cheese instantly. >Do I want to eat this cheese here? I didn't say. > >> FIREWORKS ENSUED! >> Now...remember we do play a friendly game and angle shooting is not looked >> upon as something friendly in this group. So, his verbal announcement was >> interpreted as he was folding and the dealer (not in the hand) pushes the >> pot to the the all-in. Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he >> is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. But we make it >> clear that your verbal announcement is your move no matter what. The entire >> group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly because of the >> obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. Newbie goes tilty >> and proceeds to get knocked out some time later. And by the way...newbie >> had the winning hand...the all-in player showed his hand after being asked >> by newbie...wow was he heated now! > >I'd let the guy still call if he wanted to at this point. It's a clear fold. "If this were..." implies "but since it isn't". Anyway, if everyone thinks you've folded in a home game, you've folded. Fuck off if you don't like it. > >If you don't like him, then don't invite him back. Too right. -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

"Padde" New User Bekkalokk@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 8:53 PM Post #12 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post *Yardz > "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call > you instantly", then tables his cards face up. [snip] > Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he > is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. [snip] > But we make it clear that your verbal announcement is your move no matter what. [snip] > The entire group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly because of the > obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. That hand would be considered a fold in any home game I've ever been to in the last five years, but that would be because the rules where I play say that tabled cards are automatically a fold, unless there has been a "call" announcement, no matter if you are faced with an all-in situation or not. However, there is nothing in the rules that say you are not allowed to try an get a reaction from your opponent. If you have a rule that states that you can table the cards when you are faced with an all-in situation, the hand should be in action. He didn't say he folded, he only said if this was a cash game, he woluld /definately/ call. No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 9:00 PM Post #13 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Dr Zen wrote: > It's a clear fold. "If this were..." implies "but since it isn't". Supposing it does, he could say,"If this were a real game I'd call you instantly, but since it isn't I have to think about it." Has he already folded before he says the last bit? What if he said, "If this were a real game, I would fold instantly." Has he called? If you think he's shooting an angle, do you think he's learned something innappropriately between the time he flipped his cards up and the dealer started to push the pot? He's clarified that he didn't mean to fold. Why shouldn't you honor that clarification? If the other player turned over *his* cards genuinely thinking it was a fold, I might have a different opinion. The OP didn't tell us that the hand was killed. I presume the newbie would've objected to that motion as well. No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 9:17 PM Post #14 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On 12 Sep 2006 18:00:06 -0700, "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> wrote: >Dr Zen wrote: >> It's a clear fold. "If this were..." implies "but since it isn't". > >Supposing it does, he could say,"If this were a real game I'd call you >instantly, but since it isn't I have to think about it." > But he didn't. He stopped at "instantly". >Has he already folded before he says the last bit? No, he's folded when the dealer mucks his cards. >What if he said, "If this were a real game, I would fold instantly." >Has he called? I'd be careful about showing my cards after saying that, wouldn't you? > >If you think he's shooting an angle, do you think he's learned >something innappropriately between the time he flipped his cards up and >the dealer started to push the pot? He's clarified that he didn't mean >to fold. Why shouldn't you honor that clarification? If I'm the dealer? > If the other >player turned over *his* cards genuinely thinking it was a fold, I >might have a different opinion. > >The OP didn't tell us that the hand was killed. Unfortunately, home games aren't run like Foxwoods usually, so that the hand is killed when you say you're folding and throw it in. If the guy wasn't throwing it in, he should not have thrown his cards out into the table. That's stoopid. > I presume the newbie >would've objected to that motion as well. The newbie should hang the fuck onto his cards. -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 9:21 PM Post #15 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On 12 Sep 2006 17:53:15 -0700, "Padde" <Bekkalokk@gmail.com> wrote: >*Yardz >> "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would call >> you instantly", then tables his cards face up. >[snip] > >> Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he >> is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. >[snip] > >> But we make it clear that your verbal announcement is your move no matter what. >[snip] > >> The entire group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly because of the >> obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. > >That hand would be considered a fold in any home game I've ever been to >in the last five years, but that would be because the rules where I >play say that tabled cards are automatically a fold, unless there has >been a "call" announcement, no matter if you are faced with an all-in >situation or not. > Totally. Throw your cards onto the table without saying you've called and you've folded. Clear as day. >However, there is nothing in the rules that say you are not allowed to >try an get a reaction from your opponent. Of course you can. But if you do it by mucking your cards, well, they're still mucked. > >If you have a rule that states that you can table the cards when you >are faced with an all-in situation, the hand should be in action. He >didn't say he folded, he only said if this was a cash game, he woluld >/definately/ call. He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

"Padde" New User Bekkalokk@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 9:36 PM Post #16 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post *Dr Zen > He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy > liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you > guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? It is true that when someone tables the cards without announcing a call, it is considered a mucked hand both in grand tourneys and also most home games. But in a home game the house is free to make its own rules, and if showing the cards when faced all-in is /allowed/ in /this/ home game, someting the following sentence from OP suggests; # Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he # is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. action is still on! OP also admits that this was not the reason the dealer and everybody else considered it a muck, it was because he had done it to "get a reaction from the opponent". No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 10:39 PM Post #17 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Dr Zen wrote: > He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy > liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you > guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? Nowhere that I've ever played is an exposed hand considered dead. The only live tournament I remember playing in a casino was Binions, however. Exposing this hand is within the rules in a cash game. Note how this admonition is worded in Robert's Rules. The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: . . . Revealing the contents of a live hand **in a multihanded pot** before the betting is complete. The tournament section states that there may be a "penalty", but explicitly *not* the killing of the hand 22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one's hand during the play may be penalized. I can't imagine a host in a home game assessing a penalty against a player. No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 10:52 PM Post #18 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Dr Zen wrote: > On 12 Sep 2006 18:00:06 -0700, "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > >Dr Zen wrote: > >> It's a clear fold. "If this were..." implies "but since it isn't". > > > >Supposing it does, he could say,"If this were a real game I'd call you > >instantly, but since it isn't I have to think about it." > > > > But he didn't. He stopped at "instantly". Allow me to cnnnect the dots. He is contrasting his action with that in a "real" game. The contrast could be between call and fold. The contrast could be between instantly and slowly. Because he hasn't said either thing, his statement is not a clear fold. You're inferring that the contrast is between call and fold. >Has he already folded before he says the last bit? > > No, he's folded when the dealer mucks his cards. I haven't read when that happened in the OP's situation. > >What if he said, "If this were a real game, I would fold instantly." > >Has he called? > > I'd be careful about showing my cards after saying that, wouldn't you? Yes. I've been careful to keep ahold of my cards when I've exposed them in a cash game. I'm not suggesting that the newbie is being smart. > >If you think he's shooting an angle, do you think he's learned > >something innappropriately between the time he flipped his cards up and > >the dealer started to push the pot? He's clarified that he didn't mean > >to fold. Why shouldn't you honor that clarification? > > If I'm the dealer? Yeah. > > If the other > >player turned over *his* cards genuinely thinking it was a fold, I > >might have a different opinion. > > > >The OP didn't tell us that the hand was killed. > > Unfortunately, home games aren't run like Foxwoods usually, so that > the hand is killed when you say you're folding and throw it in. If the > guy wasn't throwing it in, he should not have thrown his cards out > into the table. That's stoopid. OP said he "tabled" them. It was the verbal declaration they were arguing. No Karma

"James L. Hankins" New User jhankins5@cox.net[no spam] Sep 12, 2006, 10:55 PM Post #19 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post   "Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d2neg29ntfqots8u2o4g7as9ggd4osu3b1@4ax.com... > On 12 Sep 2006 17:53:15 -0700, "Padde" <Bekkalokk@gmail.com> wrote: > >>*Yardz >>> "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would >>> call >>> you instantly", then tables his cards face up. >>[snip] >> >>> Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he >>> is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. >>[snip] >> >>> But we make it clear that your verbal announcement is your move no >>> matter what. >>[snip] >> >>> The entire group of 13 other players agreed this was a fold, mostly >>> because of the >>> obvious ploy to get a reaction out of the all-in player. >> >>That hand would be considered a fold in any home game I've ever been to >>in the last five years, but that would be because the rules where I >>play say that tabled cards are automatically a fold, unless there has >>been a "call" announcement, no matter if you are faced with an all-in >>situation or not. >> > > Totally. Throw your cards onto the table without saying you've called > and you've folded. Clear as day. Tabling your cards to get a reaction from the other player would be acceptable in every home game in which I have ever played. The contrary rule appears to me to be a product of televised poker tournaments. > Of course you can. But if you do it by mucking your cards, well, > they're still mucked. They are not mucked just about everwhere where real men play poker. > He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy > liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you > guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? In every cash game in every casino there is and almost all tournaments everywhere. Trying to cheat? Are you shitting me? I think you should be crushed by huge beer can falling out of sky about the same time as you start whining, "but, but, but, he showed his cards......" BOOM! No Karma

"James L. Hankins" New User jhankins5@cox.net[no spam] Sep 12, 2006, 10:58 PM Post #20 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post   "Padde" <Bekkalokk@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1158111379.217400.241290@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > *Dr Zen >> He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy >> liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you >> guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? > > It is true that when someone tables the cards without announcing a > call, it is considered a mucked hand both in grand tourneys and also > most home games. It boggles my mind that you think this is true. Exposing cards is legal in every home game in which I have ever played, including tournaments. The "exposed hand is mucked" rule seems to be a product of televised poker tournaments and is for complete pussies. > But in a home game the house is free to make its own rules, and if > showing the cards when faced all-in is /allowed/ in /this/ home game, > someting the following sentence from OP suggests; > > # Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he > # is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. > > action is still on! OP also admits that this was not the reason the > dealer and everybody else considered it a muck, it was because he had > done it to "get a reaction from the opponent". BFD?! Getting a reaction from the opponent is called "playing poker." The reason all the regulars were pissed was because the dumbfuck all-in failed to ask a simply question, "Sir, does that mean you call?" and wait for the answer. No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 11:03 PM Post #21 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On 12 Sep 2006 19:39:37 -0700, "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> wrote: >Dr Zen wrote: >> He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy >> liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you >> guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? > >Nowhere that I've ever played is an exposed hand considered dead. > The >only live tournament I remember playing in a casino was Binions, >however. > >Exposing this hand is within the rules in a cash game. Note how this >admonition is worded in Robert's Rules. > >The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, >suspending, or barring a violator: >. . . >Revealing the contents of a live hand **in a multihanded pot** before >the betting is complete. > > >The tournament section states that there may be a "penalty", but >explicitly *not* the killing of the hand > >22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights >of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see >contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any >cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless >the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a >player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his >hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one's hand during the >play may be penalized. > >I can't imagine a host in a home game assessing a penalty against a >player. Okay. Get your copy of Robert's Rules out and read Dead Hands 1b. That will do here. -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

Dr Zen New User freddyvessant@gmail.com Sep 12, 2006, 11:06 PM Post #22 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post On 12 Sep 2006 18:36:19 -0700, "Padde" <Bekkalokk@gmail.com> wrote: >*Dr Zen >> He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy >> liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you >> guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? > >It is true that when someone tables the cards without announcing a >call, it is considered a mucked hand both in grand tourneys and also >most home games. > >But in a home game the house is free to make its own rules, and if >showing the cards when faced all-in is /allowed/ in /this/ home game, >someting the following sentence from OP suggests; > ># Newbie claims he can table his cards face up if he ># is faced with an all-in heads up. True, for the most part. If he has called it. If I was the dealer, I'd interpret throwing your cards in face up as a muck and kill them. I'm guessing the dealer grabbed his cards and that's when the furore kicked off. > >action is still on! OP also admits that this was not the reason the >dealer and everybody else considered it a muck, it was because he had >done it to "get a reaction from the opponent". I think that if the crowd wants the arsehole punished, they should have their way. -- Dr Zen King of the wild pixels. http://gollyg.blogspot.com No Karma

"James L. Hankins" New User jhankins5@cox.net[no spam] Sep 12, 2006, 11:07 PM Post #23 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post   "Dr Zen" <freddyvessant@gmail.com> wrote in message news:vuseg2h4b4nanj8i8fmusjoa4q1c446b6d@4ax.com... > On 12 Sep 2006 19:39:37 -0700, "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>Dr Zen wrote: >>> He clearly tried to cheat. He was waiting to see whether the other guy >>> liked what he saw before declaring whether he called. Where are you >>> guys playing that you can show your cards and they stay live? >> >>Nowhere that I've ever played is an exposed hand considered dead. > >> The >>only live tournament I remember playing in a casino was Binions, >>however. >> >>Exposing this hand is within the rules in a cash game. Note how this >>admonition is worded in Robert's Rules. >> >>The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, >>suspending, or barring a violator: >>. . . >>Revealing the contents of a live hand **in a multihanded pot** before >>the betting is complete. >> >> >>The tournament section states that there may be a "penalty", but >>explicitly *not* the killing of the hand >> >>22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights >>of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see >>contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any >>cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless >>the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a >>player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his >>hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one's hand during the >>play may be penalized. >> >>I can't imagine a host in a home game assessing a penalty against a >>player. > > > Okay. Get your copy of Robert's Rules out and read Dead Hands 1b. That > will do here. You mean this: "You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet )." That rule doesn't apply in this situation. Do you even play poker? No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 12, 2006, 11:08 PM Post #24 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post Dr Zen wrote: > Okay. Get your copy of Robert's Rules out and read Dead Hands 1b. That > will do here. Which is: 1. Your hand is declared dead if: (b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet). No, I don't think that applies. He "tabled" the hand. He turned it face up. He didn't throw it away. No one can act behind him. No Karma

"Stephen Jacobs" New User jacosa@comcast.net Sep 12, 2006, 11:39 PM Post #25 of 107(266 views) Shortcut Re: home game ruling [In reply to] Can't Post   "Yardz" <yardz@verizon.net> wrote in message news:niFNg.37159$Qb2.23273@trnddc08... .......... > > Anyway...one hand gets heads up with him and another player. Newbie is > faced with calling an all-in move for most of his chips. He ponders and > ponders...and ponders and ponders...then verbally in a very clear tone > says "if this were a real game...(I think he meant a cash game)...I would > call you instantly", then tables his cards face up. FIREWORKS ENSUED! ............... Where I play, we enforce magic words. He used the word "call," and nothing else he said matters. He said it before he tabled his cards, so the call stands. No Karma

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