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"San Te of the 36 Chambers" New User exaynrandfan@hotmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 7:42 AM Post #1 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Hand Histories are not good for the game Can't Post When I first found out about instant hand histories on Party Poker, I was pissed. Then I learned how to use pokertracker and various other tools and I became hooked. I tried playing sites that didn't have hand histories and I felt partially blind. Now I've come full-circle. Although I do love my database, I just don't think that hand histories are good for the game in the long-run. It opens up the risk of being data-mined. Even if you don't allow observer hand histories, people have found ways around it by scraping the dealer chat box and god knows what else. So it turns one aspect of poker into a battle of technical skills. It helps people improve their game much faster. And of course, it helps people develop bots which I believe will ultimately be the death of online poker. But of course, people have gotten so used to hand histories that they'll never give them up. My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called a bet. I think this is a good compromise. _____________________________________________________________________  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Join Titan Poker" New User jointitanpoker@gmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:13 AM Post #2 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post   San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand > histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called > a bet. I think this is a good compromise. Why not get rid of it only for observers? That would require you to be sitting at the table to get the data, which is realistic (compared to being able to view 4 to 10 tables that you aren't even participating in and scrape all the action into a log). No Karma

"DennisP" New User dennis.picht@gmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:24 AM Post #3 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post   San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > When I first found out about instant hand histories on Party Poker, I was > pissed. Then I learned how to use pokertracker and various other tools and > I became hooked. I tried playing sites that didn't have hand histories > and I felt partially blind. > > Now I've come full-circle. Although I do love my database, I just don't > think that hand histories are good for the game in the long-run. It opens > up the risk of being data-mined. Even if you don't allow observer hand > histories, people have found ways around it by scraping the dealer chat > box and god knows what else. So it turns one aspect of poker into a > battle of technical skills. It helps people improve their game much > faster. And of course, it helps people develop bots which I believe will > ultimately be the death of online poker. > > But of course, people have gotten so used to hand histories that they'll > never give them up. > > My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand > histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called > a bet. I think this is a good compromise. > > _____________________________________________________________________ > * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com I disagree. I think giving players the ability to improve is good for their game. I've learned a ton from looking at my play in PT and altering it. I'm always trying to plug a small leak somewhere. I can accept the argument about data mining on other players. WPX recently added instant HH, but they do not include opponent name, just a number that changes. This has created a lot of debate on 2+2. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, but I understand their reasoning. I like using Gametime+. It alone doesn't make me a winning player, but it better lets me know general tendancies. I'm very good at this playing B&M because it is much easier to remember faces, clothing, etc then a simple screenname. Often it will take an orbit before I even realize someone left and someone new is in that seat. Things like this I can easily identify live. But, I can understand the argument against these. I do think examining of ones own play is a good thing though. No Karma

thedudeabides New User 43085069@recpoker.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:25 AM Post #4 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 13 2006 6:42 AM, San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > Now I've come full-circle. Although I do love my database, I just don't > think that hand histories are good for the game in the long-run. It opens Databases\trackers\huds\spreadsheets\cheatsoftware\are for pussies. Note taking is for idiots. If it ain't a game its a job. I'm retired... Cept for uh, certain investment opportunities which appear from time to time. I'm also a fairly consistent winning online nlhe player... I well soon be a winning Las Vegas b&m play'a. I will play when I want to. Not when I have to. I will never 'have' to. And the games... the games... Uh, sorry, just lapsed into a daydream - lol... Texas will just be a bad memory in my review mirror - ROTF... _______________________________________________________________ The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

The Fred New User 43084305@recpoker.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:39 AM Post #5 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post Texas is good. On Sep 13 2006 7:25 AM, thedudeabides wrote: > > Texas will just be a bad memory in my review mirror - > ROTF... > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Elvis Henry" New User elvishenry73@yahoo.com Sep 13, 2006, 1:04 PM Post #6 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post I've learned of a site called Cake Poker that allows users to change their handle every 7 days. The reason: the site is committed to protecting its users from software like Poker Tracker and data mining. They say other sites like Stars can't do this because of the way their database is structured; they would have to execute such a radical overhaul to maintain the DB's integrity to allow handle changes that it is not financially feasible for them to do so. I've seen Stars acknowledge this fact. Of course, Stars says that if you were in a casino, you couldn't change the way you look, so why should you be allowed to change your handle online? And my answer to this is and always has been: tracking software and data mining. I've never played on Cake. I saw one of the their representatives post about this policy in an online forum. Of course, if Stars made a policy change like this, they would have to acknowledge that JJProdigy's claim that he felt an alternative ID was necessary so the he wasn't so easily read is valid. Stars says you absolutely cannot change your handle. They do make exceptions, as I've seen in posted emails on PocketFives. Elvis No Karma

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Olmanst?= New User kingricky2000@hotmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 1:24 PM Post #7 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post Elvis Henry a écrit : > They say other sites like Stars can't do this because of the way their > database is structured; they would have to execute such a radical > overhaul to maintain the DB's integrity to allow handle changes that it > is not financially feasible for them to do so. I've seen Stars > acknowledge this fact. (sorry for my bad english) I doubt that the PK of the client table in the other room's database is the nickname, it's certainly a autoincrement number, because that's how every experienced programmer would implement this (because of performance issues). No Karma

A Man Beaten by Jacks New User nobody@fool.foo Sep 13, 2006, 3:02 PM Post #8 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 04:42:36 -0700, "San Te of the 36 Chambers" <exaynrandfan@hotmail.com> wrote: >When I first found out about instant hand histories on Party Poker, I was >pissed. Then I learned how to use pokertracker and various other tools and >I became hooked. I tried playing sites that didn't have hand histories >and I felt partially blind. >Now I've come full-circle. Although I do love my database, I just don't >think that hand histories are good for the game in the long-run. It opens >up the risk of being data-mined. Even if you don't allow observer hand >histories, people have found ways around it by scraping the dealer chat >box and god knows what else. So it turns one aspect of poker into a >battle of technical skills. It helps people improve their game much >faster. And of course, it helps people develop bots which I believe will >ultimately be the death of online poker. >But of course, people have gotten so used to hand histories that they'll >never give them up. >My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand >histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called >a bet. I think this is a good compromise. And without detailed hand histories, how exactly do you tell a site isn't rigged? Without any tools for valid statistical analysis, it would be very easy to rig the sites. Also, it is impossible to display the action in any meaningful way without it also being possible to store that data. If data is coming from the server allowing the game client to display cards, chips, and other action, then it is possible to translate that into some kind of hand history (HandGrabber is an example of a utility of this sort for Pacific Poker). No Karma

The Fred New User 43084305@recpoker.com Sep 13, 2006, 6:29 PM Post #9 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post Well said. The disallowing unseated players thing would be effective- /to some degree/- but then alot of fools would complain because they like to watch the action before buying their seat It is all similar to politics but less complicated On Sep 13 2006 2:02 PM, A Man Beaten by Jacks wrote: > <exaynrandfan@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > And without detailed hand histories, how exactly do you > tell a site isn't > rigged? Without any tools for valid statistical analysis, > it would be very > easy to rig the sites. > > Also, it is impossible to display the action in any > meaningful way without it > also being possible to store that data. If data is coming > from the server > allowing the game client to display cards, chips, and > other action, then it > is possible to translate that into some kind of hand > history (HandGrabber > is an example of a utility of this sort for Pacific > Poker). _______________________________________________________________ Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

John Forsberg New User 43078591@recpoker.com Sep 13, 2006, 7:44 PM Post #10 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 13 2006 1:42 PM, San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand > histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called > a bet. I think this is a good compromise. I don't. That means that the advantage will be restricted to the people priviliged with access to programs that can create hand histories anyway. A *much* easier solution to datamining is forcing players to use a new screen name each time they log in. That way you get anonimity for everyone. _______________________________________________________________ Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"DennisP" New User dennis.picht@gmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:43 PM Post #11 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post   John Forsberg wrote: > On Sep 13 2006 1:42 PM, San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > > My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand > > histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called > > a bet. I think this is a good compromise. > > I don't. That means that the advantage will be restricted to the people > priviliged with access to programs that can create hand histories anyway. > > A *much* easier solution to datamining is forcing players to use a new screen > name each time they log in. That way you get anonimity for everyone. > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com Anonymity is stupid. I love HHs, but that is a very small part of my success in terms of other players. Notes on those players is what helps, knowing tendancies, things that you know from live poker. One great thing about WPX is the smaller user base, I know more than half the table when I sit down. On FTP the HUDs help because there are so many users I can't keep track of a name. But, knowing names and betting patterns from memory is a part of poker and changing identities would eliminate this. No Karma

John Forsberg New User 43078591@recpoker.com Sep 14, 2006, 1:13 PM Post #12 of 14(122 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 14 2006 2:43 AM, DennisP wrote: > Anonymity is stupid. I love HHs, but that is a very small part of my > success in terms of other players. Notes on those players is what > helps, knowing tendancies, things that you know from live poker. Uhm, if all players use a new screen name every time you wouldn't have that anymore... From the perspective of the operators it's a plus since it equalizes the playing field. And trust me, there's plenty of people benefitting from data mining. >But, knowing names and > betting patterns from memory is a part of poker and changing identities > would eliminate this. Yeah, that's the point. Also online poker and live poker are not, and should not be the same thing. _______________________________________________________________ Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"San Te of the 36 Chambers" New User exaynrandfan@hotmail.com Sep 14, 2006, 6:53 PM Post #13 of 14(120 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 13 2006 5:24 AM, DennisP wrote: > San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > I disagree. I think giving players the ability to improve is good for > their game. I've learned a ton from looking at my play in PT and > altering it. I'm always trying to plug a small leak somewhere. It is good for *their* game but it is not good for the game period. If you are beating the game, it is not good for your opponents to be able to track how much you are beating them by. It is also not good for them to realize how consistently you are beating them. -----  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"San Te of the 36 Chambers" New User exaynrandfan@hotmail.com Sep 14, 2006, 6:56 PM Post #14 of 14(120 views) Shortcut Re: Hand Histories are not good for the game [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 13 2006 4:44 PM, John Forsberg wrote: > On Sep 13 2006 1:42 PM, San Te of the 36 Chambers wrote: > > My suggestion: Get rid of detailed dealer chat and detailed hand > > histories. All you get to see is your opponent's hole cards if he called > > a bet. I think this is a good compromise. > > I don't. That means that the advantage will be restricted to the people > priviliged with access to programs that can create hand histories anyway. Yeah, I agree to some extent. People's technical skills to get around obstacles never fails to amaze me. But with dealer chat and hand histories gone, I think the effort becomes much more difficult. At least anyone going through the effort would be less likely to share their efforts for free. > A *much* easier solution to datamining is forcing players to use a new screen > name each time they log in. That way you get anonimity for everyone. I just thinks that's too much. I do think that a big chunk of my edge comes from being able to remember how someone generally plays. ____________________________________________________________________  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

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