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"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 2:54 AM Post #1 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette Can't Post When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking about know what I mean. Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of those cards if you want to run a bluff. Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. End of rant. Thanks for listening. Howard Beale ______________________________________________________________________  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

Fess77 New User 43086095@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 3:22 AM Post #2 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 6 2006 1:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale I agree with you that our poker rooms have been invaded by tv-poker playing, backwards baseball hat wearing, poker chip tricking, faux gold rolex wearing clueless yaehoos and wannabes and that they are loud, obnoxious and ignorant as to etiquette. However, my income would be radically impacted for the worse without them. Pokerroom buffoons, can't live with them & can't break their kneecaps....oops I mean live without them. _______________________________________________________________ The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 3:42 AM Post #3 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 1:22 AM, Fess77 wrote: > I agree with you that our poker rooms have been invaded by tv-poker playing, > backwards baseball hat wearing, poker chip tricking, faux gold rolex wearing > clueless yaehoos and wannabes and that they are loud, obnoxious and ignorant as > to etiquette. However, my income would be radically impacted for the worse > without them. Pokerroom buffoons, can't live with them & can't break their > kneecaps....oops I mean live without them. There is that to be said for them but I think the occasional word from a dealer along the lines of 'you shouldn't tell everybody what you folded' etc. would be nice. HB ---  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

arlo payne New User arlo_payne@hotmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 3:44 AM Post #4 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty of open land in Arizona, _______________________________________________________________ * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

Porsche_Dan New User 43080932@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 3:48 AM Post #5 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   I agree completely, and just blame it one age, mine and ours. I used to be one of the younger fellas around town and now the average poker room is probably half my age. The Northern Calif card rooms are the same, crowded, smelly, loud, and rude.  The loud talkers, smelly smokers, nose pickers, stallers, drunks, and idiots unite! My last session at a B&M a fat guy just lifted a cheek, farted, and without missing a beat check raised a guy. Definitely an internet player. Another guy thought he was the amazing Kreskin and kept guessing hands, even when he wasn't involved. If that's what you enjoy, fine. If that's what you need to do to make a living, great. For me I will stick to home games and the internet. I'm just about ready to cash out, buy a new Porsche and upgrade my netflix membership to super platinum. Cheers! On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale _______________________________________________________________ Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:01 AM Post #6 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 1:44 AM, arlo payne wrote: > The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty of > open land in Arizona, There are more and more occasions occuring when I wish I was a tough guy. Just let me be a tough guy a few times. But I'm a creampuff, there's no help for it. HB ----  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

Dave Dale New User use_contact_form@mywebsite.net Sep 6, 2006, 4:03 AM Post #7 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post > The thing is is that >I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these >things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no >help whatsoever. I agree with your comments. When I first started playing 20 years ago the other players would point out to me, usually nicely, that something I had done was not appropriate. I learned. But now-a-days it seems much less likely anyone says anything. I played with a woman at the bike a week ago who slow rolled the winning hand 3 times against nice pleasant players. She was simply a nasty despicable gal. Yet not one of those people ever said a thing to her. When she left the table everyone talked about her, but no one said anything to her face. So, why should she stop doing it if there is no negative consequence? I think she knew her behavior was wrong but she appeared to get pleasure from doing it. So why stop if its fun for you? I think the standards will only improve if we all, especially us old timers, make a stand. I call players on their bad behavior all the time and often get argued with (I had three college age guys gang up on me for insisting everyone act in turn)! They saw no reason for such a rule despite my explanation. Nevertheless, just as I was taught the right way to behave by players, I feel it is our obligation to do the same (although it would be nice if the dealers and floor helped too). Also, if someone refuses to stop then they should be punished. Give them some of their own medicine! If they slow roll, then slow roll them and make a point of telling them you did it only because they did it. If they divulge their cards on the flop, wait until they make a crucial bet and then declare what cards you threw away - and be sure to tell them you only spoke because they had been disclosing their cards. Eventually they will get the message. A few years ago a guy was in a huge pot with me playing $75 - $150 seven card stud. I showed my kings full and he said "I've only got 2 pair." Of course, as I started to rake in the pot he showed 4 nines. Miraculously, within an hour I got 4 jacks in an even bigger pot against him and did the same thing to him. He didn't think it was so funny then. Sometimes there is justice! Dave Dale www.clubwager.net Online Poker Portal No Karma

arlo payne New User arlo_payne@hotmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 4:25 AM Post #8 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 6 2006 1:01 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 1:44 AM, arlo payne wrote: > > > The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty > of > > open land in Arizona, > > > There are more and more occasions occuring when I wish I was a tough guy. > Just let me be a tough guy a few times. But I'm a creampuff, there's no > help for it. > > > HB Are you trying to tell me your man bag did not comewith the 9MM option :) _______________________________________________________________ New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:46 AM Post #9 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 2:25 AM, arlo payne wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 1:01 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > > > On Sep 6 2006 1:44 AM, arlo payne wrote: > > > > > The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty > > of > > > open land in Arizona, > > > > > > There are more and more occasions occuring when I wish I was a tough guy. > > Just let me be a tough guy a few times. But I'm a creampuff, there's no > > help for it. > > > > > > HB > > > Are you trying to tell me your man bag did not comewith the 9MM option :) I could fit a sack full of grenades in it. Want to know the biggest hassle of carrying the thing? I keep getting searched! They make me unzip and open up all the compartments! Not everyday but often enough to make me not bring the bottle of Grand Marnier that I'd like to bring. A short story: Some years back a brute threatened to pulverize me. I told him that I fight the 'Jewish Way' and that he wouldn't like it. 'What is the Jewish Way of fighting?', he asked. 'When I get out of the hospital I hire the baddest ass mofo in the City to break every bone in your body and then I sue you for all you are worth and hound you with the judgement for the rest of your life.' That shut him up. HB ____________________________________________________________________  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:49 AM Post #10 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 2:03 AM, Dave Dale wrote: > A few years ago a guy was in a huge pot with me playing $75 - $150 > seven card stud. I showed my kings full and he said "I've only got 2 > pair." Of course, as I started to rake in the pot he showed 4 nines. > Miraculously, within an hour I got 4 jacks in an even bigger pot > against him and did the same thing to him. He didn't think it was so > funny then. Sometimes there is justice! > > Dave Dale This is the sort of thing that makes me really wish for the existence of a hereafter so that such memories can be cherished for eternity. HB _______________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

Fess77 New User 43086095@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 5:11 AM Post #11 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 6 2006 3:03 PM, Dave Dale wrote: > > The thing is is that > >I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > >things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > >help whatsoever. > > I agree with your comments. When I first started playing 20 years ago > the other players would point out to me, usually nicely, that > something I had done was not appropriate. I learned. But now-a-days it > seems much less likely anyone says anything. > > I played with a woman at the bike a week ago who slow rolled the > winning hand 3 times against nice pleasant players. She was simply a > nasty despicable gal. Yet not one of those people ever said a thing to > her. When she left the table everyone talked about her, but no one > said anything to her face. So, why should she stop doing it if there > is no negative consequence? I think she knew her behavior was wrong > but she appeared to get pleasure from doing it. So why stop if its fun > for you? > > I think the standards will only improve if we all, especially us old > timers, make a stand. I call players on their bad behavior all the > time and often get argued with (I had three college age guys gang up > on me for insisting everyone act in turn)! They saw no reason for such > a rule despite my explanation. Nevertheless, just as I was taught the > right way to behave by players, I feel it is our obligation to do the > same (although it would be nice if the dealers and floor helped too). > > Also, if someone refuses to stop then they should be punished. Give > them some of their own medicine! If they slow roll, then slow roll > them and make a point of telling them you did it only because they did > it. If they divulge their cards on the flop, wait until they make a > crucial bet and then declare what cards you threw away - and be sure > to tell them you only spoke because they had been disclosing their > cards. Eventually they will get the message. > > A few years ago a guy was in a huge pot with me playing $75 - $150 > seven card stud. I showed my kings full and he said "I've only got 2 > pair." Of course, as I started to rake in the pot he showed 4 nines. > Miraculously, within an hour I got 4 jacks in an even bigger pot > against him and did the same thing to him. He didn't think it was so > funny then. Sometimes there is justice! > > Dave Dale > http://www.clubwager.net/ > Online Poker Portal after reading your insightful reply i feel obliged to pound the table and scream "pass the sugah" in your honor! http://www.professor77.com/ online poker library   _______________________________________________________________ Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

Tanya AKA MissT74 New User 43084303@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 6:33 AM Post #12 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   I totally agree with your assesment and that kind of behaviour, when it happens, makes me actually get up and leave that table, even that poker room if there aren't any other tables to go to. I blame the dealers slightly, but blame the house/floor more justly so as they are the ones that are to be expected to train their staff (dealers) properly and then punish the dealers that don't follow the rules. I am also one that acts as table captain quite frequently and I get the attitude too, when I do do it, but hey, it has to be done. Unless we fight back, it would NEVER change and that's not something I'm ready to concede to yet. Take your OP to be just what it was, a rant, and continue doing what you've been doing. Don't stop, don't give in, because otherwise....can you imagine it in 6 more months? 1 more year? Egads. Icky. Love ya, T On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale _______________________________________________________________ Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"igotskillz com" New User a7cd0d4@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 6:39 AM Post #13 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 5:49 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > > This is the sort of thing that makes me really wish for the existence of a > hereafter so that such memories can be cherished for eternity. What kind of magical proof would you like ? > > > > HB Thank YOU www.igotskillz.com ---  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"DennisP" New User dennis.picht@gmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 9:06 AM Post #14 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale > > ______________________________________________________________________ > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com I totally agree with you Howard. I'm sure if people saw me they would think I'm one like you describe, the mid-20 year old male internet player often with his hat backwards. But, I've found it any sex/age/gender that can be doing this type of thing. I was actually surprised at BARGE playing games with non-BARGErs I didn't come across too much of this at the Venetian. I can think of one incident where a guy was an ass, but we calmed him down and ordered him another beer. We wanted him at the table as he was giving his money away. Was this unethical? I don't think so, I'm sure some would disagree though. As someone mentioned earlier, it's a tough balance to accept it as they are often the ones you want in the game. One great thing about online is you can bitch and moan your 63 would've flopped a boat w/o anyone knowing anything. I do think it is the poker room's job to train their dealers in this way. The problem is, what is the penalty on a 2nd, 3rd, 4th occurance? In a tournament they could easily give penalties, but in a ring game? I don't know. No Karma

Max Coin New User 43082465@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 10:04 AM Post #15 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post That sucks dude, I play at Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage and the things you mentioned would not be tolerated by ythe dealers. As a matter of fact I was reprimended for reading at the table. No joke, it,s not allowed On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale _______________________________________________________________ * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 10:57 AM Post #16 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 4:39 AM, igotskillz com wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 5:49 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > > > > > > This is the sort of thing that makes me really wish for the existence of a > > hereafter so that such memories can be cherished for eternity. > > What kind of magical proof would you like ? I would like to see my ex mother-in-laws head transplanted from her neck to her anus so that she has to defecate thru her mouth. I don't know what that might prove but I'd like it anyway. HB ________________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 11:06 AM Post #17 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 4:33 AM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote: > I totally agree with your assesment and that kind of behaviour, when it happens, > makes me actually get up and leave that table, even that poker room if there > aren't any other tables to go to. There is nowhere for me to flee to and they are all the same around here anyway and it happens at every table I play at. > > I blame the dealers slightly, but blame the house/floor more justly so as they > are the ones that are to be expected to train their staff (dealers) properly and > then punish the dealers that don't follow the rules. A couple of months ago one of the dealers (named James for those readers from CA) actually stopped 2 players from talking about the hands in play. I started applauding him. Literally clapping. I mentioned this to a floor person who directed me to the floor person who runs the regular dealer meetings. She said she would lecture the dealers on the subject. No change that I can see. > > I am also one that acts as table captain quite frequently and I get the attitude > too, when I do do it, but hey, it has to be done. Unless we fight back, it would > NEVER change and that's not something I'm ready to concede to yet. I can't take it anymore. I'm usually the only one and it doesn't do any good anyway. Depending on who is at the table I may get back up but not that often. > > Take your OP to be just what it was, a rant, and continue doing what you've been > doing. Don't stop, don't give in, because otherwise....can you imagine it in 6 > more months? 1 more year? Egads. Icky. > > Love ya, > T Smooch! HB -------  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Kinnipak" New User a83ea3b@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 11:14 AM Post #18 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 2:48 AM, Porsche_Dan wrote: > I agree completely, and just blame it one age, mine and ours. I used to be one > of the younger fellas around town and now the average poker room is probably > half my age. The Northern Calif card rooms are the same, crowded, smelly, loud, > and rude. The loud talkers, smelly smokers, nose pickers, stallers, drunks, and > idiots unite! My last session at a B&M a fat guy just lifted a cheek, farted, > and without missing a beat check raised a guy. Definitely an internet player. > Another guy thought he was the amazing Kreskin and kept guessing hands, even > when he wasn't involved. > > If that's what you enjoy, fine. If that's what you need to do to make a living, > great. For me I will stick to home games and the internet. I'm just about ready > to cash out, buy a new Porsche and upgrade my netflix membership to super > platinum. > *snip* "My last session at a B&M a fat guy just lifted a cheek, farted, and without missing a beat check raised a guy." absofrigginglutely the funniest thing I have read here in a while..... Thx Dan. ----  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"GrimJack808" New User grimjack808@gmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 11:17 AM Post #19 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Well written and solid advice. We all learned from somewhere when we came to a poker room. It is no different now. The only twist is that because of the recent poker boom, there are so many newbies that they are tough to absorb. If you get the occasional new player at a 10 handed table, people will catch on quick. But if 6 of the 10 players are new, what they absorb going on around them is probably the stuff they don't know shouldn't be going on. Someone has to hold the line and it should be 90% the other players and the dealers and 10% the floor. You can be mad as hell and decide you aren't going to take it anymore, but those words are hollow if you aren't able to back it up by constant action that Dave Dale suggests. We are all a product of our own environment. We all contribute and help form the situation we find ourselves in. When we are young, we just assume things happen on their own. As we get older, we realize that things happened a certain way for a reason. It was probably that old persnickety guy who we really didn't like telling us how to play that contributed the most. Well as time passes, the old persnickety guy that was there is gone (perhaps dead) and there has to be someone to fill his shoes. We all have memories of that old persnickety guy and no one really wants to be that guy, but we all know that we have to be or things get out of control. I don't care much about the IWTSTH rule. To me that's always been the rule. If it bothers me, I will just tell the players that they shouldn't abuse the rule. And if the abuse continues I will just call the floor and ask for a table change and say its because people are abusing the rule. As far as telling other players what to do or cajoling a call, the dealer should be on this. Unfortunately the dealers are for the most part silent these days. Some choose to be this way, and some just can't say anything meaningful through no fault of their own. As far as language, foul behavior, yelling, fighting words and the like, I think the house should assess 15 minute penalties like they do at the WSOP. When I saw it, I thought the WSOP last year started an great precedent to help control poker by establishing (AND ENFORCING) their foul language standard. They assessed penalties without fail last year against some of the world's best players...and the world's oldest player. They did this fairly and without picking and choosing who got them and who didn't. This set the standard that everyone who watches poker on television has seen and is familiar with. Now other poker rooms to follow along. The players now they shouldn't be engaging in this behavior from the Sheiks bang on the table (he got the penalty) to Mike's mouth (he got the penalty multiple times). All that needs to happen is when the floor comes over someone needs to say what happened and why there should be a penalty. They need to get the player off the table and let them back after 10 minutes. This will let them and the table cool down and also establish a mode of conduct for the players. After 10 minutes they can come back. The other people at the table feel like the message has been sent. The offending player has cooled down and now knows the standard of conduct, and the game will go on. If they lose the player, well then that's a player you didn't want around anyway and they will get more players of the type that will draw other players to the game who may currently stay away. Trust me, when one of these situations finally escalates and someone does take it outside, or take action at the table (I've seen this more than once...it was even in a PPT episode), and somebody gets seriously injured or killed, the casino is in a world of hurt for not taking action to settle the players before the dispute escalated. When this happens (assuming the casino owners don't clamp down) there are more than a few American lawyers out there that will make them wish that they had. Good Luck!! Dave Dale wrote: > > The thing is is that > >I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > >things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > >help whatsoever. > > I agree with your comments. When I first started playing 20 years ago > the other players would point out to me, usually nicely, that > something I had done was not appropriate. I learned. But now-a-days it > seems much less likely anyone says anything. > > I played with a woman at the bike a week ago who slow rolled the > winning hand 3 times against nice pleasant players. She was simply a > nasty despicable gal. Yet not one of those people ever said a thing to > her. When she left the table everyone talked about her, but no one > said anything to her face. So, why should she stop doing it if there > is no negative consequence? I think she knew her behavior was wrong > but she appeared to get pleasure from doing it. So why stop if its fun > for you? > > I think the standards will only improve if we all, especially us old > timers, make a stand. I call players on their bad behavior all the > time and often get argued with (I had three college age guys gang up > on me for insisting everyone act in turn)! They saw no reason for such > a rule despite my explanation. Nevertheless, just as I was taught the > right way to behave by players, I feel it is our obligation to do the > same (although it would be nice if the dealers and floor helped too). > > Also, if someone refuses to stop then they should be punished. Give > them some of their own medicine! If they slow roll, then slow roll > them and make a point of telling them you did it only because they did > it. If they divulge their cards on the flop, wait until they make a > crucial bet and then declare what cards you threw away - and be sure > to tell them you only spoke because they had been disclosing their > cards. Eventually they will get the message. > > A few years ago a guy was in a huge pot with me playing $75 - $150 > seven card stud. I showed my kings full and he said "I've only got 2 > pair." Of course, as I started to rake in the pot he showed 4 nines. > Miraculously, within an hour I got 4 jacks in an even bigger pot > against him and did the same thing to him. He didn't think it was so > funny then. Sometimes there is justice! > > Dave Dale > www.clubwager.net > Online Poker Portal No Karma

Porsche_Dan New User 43080932@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 11:22 AM Post #20 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Wow, that would be magical, would that work on current mother in-laws as well?  I was thinking that I would like my flopped str8 to hold up through the river but either one would work. You may still suffer from post divorce trauma Marc, just a guess. ;-) > > What kind of magical proof would you like ? > > I would like to see my ex mother-in-laws head transplanted from her neck > to her anus so that she has to defecate thru her mouth. I don't know what > that might prove but I'd like it anyway. > > > > HB _______________________________________________________________ New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Kinnipak" New User a83ea3b@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 11:27 AM Post #21 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 1:54 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale Of course that's just your opinion, you could be wrong.... but of course, you are not... :-) I agree with everything you wrote. I can't imagine someone posting something that would be against what you are saying here. How anyone can advocate such lunacy at the tables is, well, a lunatic you might want at the table... Question: Would it be reasonable to approach the floor B4 you sit and play and ask them the rules are regarding table etiquette? What steps are in place to enforce the rules? Would this put the floor on notice that they had better keep an eye on things? It might label you as a grouch or a grump, but what the hell? The other player punks are going to call you that anyway, so you might see what the floor will do for you...and the others at the table... Just a thought. ____________________________________________________________________  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Bob" New User bob@synapse-cs.com Sep 6, 2006, 11:30 AM Post #22 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: <snip> Last night in an online game, I was able to politely teach a player that it was wrong to announce what cards he folded. - Bob T. No Karma

"jeffc" New User jeffc226@yahoo.com Sep 6, 2006, 11:41 AM Post #23 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post It's not just etiquette, it's out and out cheating, such as collusion. I witnessed it myself, where 2 punks were sitting next to each other telling each other under their breath what they had. On one hand a lady finally caught them, and ultimately got completely ripped off on the hand, but whent he floor manager finally came over (due to the dealer's inability to make any decision or comment whatsoever), and even after the guy finally admitted it (after I chewed him out until we got the confession), the manager just asked them nicely not to discuss their hands and they were allowed to keep playing. This is with players waiting on the waiting list, mind you. No Karma

"Kinnipak" New User a83ea3b@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 11:46 AM Post #24 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 10:41 AM, jeffc wrote: > It's not just etiquette, it's out and out cheating, such as collusion. I > witnessed it myself, where 2 punks were sitting next to each other telling > each other under their breath what they had. On one hand a lady finally > caught them, and ultimately got completely ripped off on the hand, but whent > he floor manager finally came over (due to the dealer's inability to make > any decision or comment whatsoever), and even after the guy finally admitted > it (after I chewed him out until we got the confession), the manager just > asked them nicely not to discuss their hands and they were allowed to keep > playing. This is with players waiting on the waiting list, mind you. the guy admitted he was cheating and the floor did nothing? i find that appalling and hard to believe. I am not doubting your story jeff, that's just unbelieveable. what more can you do? bring out an extra card from your shirt? That's just insane. I would have gotten up at that point and as I was walking out alert the waiting players what just happened. Under my breath of course... ________________________________________________________________________  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Stephen Jacobs" New User jacosa@comcast.net Sep 6, 2006, 11:50 AM Post #25 of 181(1568 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message news:1v72t3xboq.ln2@recgroups.com... > When I started playing in the NY clubs ................End of rant. > Thanks for listening. > When something gets extreme, I ask the dealer to control it. Sometimes this sets the offender off on me, but I don't even tell him I fight "the Jewish way," I just stay calm thinking about it. The dealer doesn't usually do anything right away, but after a second request I call the floor to instruct the dealer to control the game, and that hasn't failed yet. Obviously, this approach is only good for one kind of offense, repeated frequently...but that's really the only kind of thing that bothers me. Home games aren't immune. I used to play in one (mostly old farts, even) where calling out the nut holding was a mainstay of conversation and where discussion of the hand by players out of it was considered normal. Learned to play a lot less predictably from that, I did. The only thing that got on everyone's nerves was the one kid who would say "All I have is this pair of kings" or whatever, as he showed the winner. No Karma

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