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"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 13, 2006, 8:35 PM Post #151 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Backslider23 wrote: > Maybe what we should do is stop tipping dealers for pushing us a pot, and > instead tip them when they do something worthwhile. Like, if a dealer > tells somebody to stop pointing out the nuts, or stop trying to guess > other people's hands, we slip him 2.0 x 10^0 bone, and let him know we > appreciate it. What's so bad about pointing out the nuts? Knowing which holding makes the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if you raise instead of closing the round with a call. Jesse No Karma

Peg Smith New User PegSmithNow@aol.comnojunk Sep 13, 2006, 8:50 PM Post #152 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: >> Maybe what we should do is stop tipping dealers for pushing us a pot, and >> instead tip them when they do something worthwhile. Like, if a dealer >> tells somebody to stop pointing out the nuts, or stop trying to guess >> other people's hands, we slip him 2.0 x 10^0 bone, and let him know we >> appreciate it. > >What's so bad about pointing out the nuts? Because one of the players who's capping with the second nuts may not have noticed that he doesn't have the nuts. And you (not YOU, but the generic you), when you open your yap, bring the action to a screeching halt. The player with the nuts may just knock your lights out. >Knowing which holding makes >the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the >game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a >straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if >you raise instead of closing the round with a call. And some yahoos *don't* know all of the above. It isn't your job to wise them up so that they stop losing their chips, *especially* not during a hand. Peg No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 14, 2006, 3:54 AM Post #153 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 13 2006 6:35 PM, Jesse wrote: > Backslider23 wrote: > > Maybe what we should do is stop tipping dealers for pushing us a pot, and > > instead tip them when they do something worthwhile. Like, if a dealer > > tells somebody to stop pointing out the nuts, or stop trying to guess > > other people's hands, we slip him 2.0 x 10^0 bone, and let him know we > > appreciate it. > > What's so bad about pointing out the nuts? Knowing which holding makes > the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the > game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a > straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if > you raise instead of closing the round with a call. > > Jesse One player to a hand is amongst the most basic of rules. If somebody opens his mouth and points out what the nut holding is he may be helping another player. Here's an example from when I first started playing: A 10-20 game at Foxwoods. The final board read A-3-3-7-9. I'll 'never' forget it. I held AA. The betting went to 7 raises and somebody not in the hand said something like 'Wow, Aces full against 4 3's.' OMG, I thought, GD, IT!, CURSES and RATS! Of course, I stopped raising. The player with the 4 3's almost had a stroke and looked like he wanted to strangle the person who opened his big, fat, stupid, idiot mouth. HB ---  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 14, 2006, 11:33 AM Post #154 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Peg Smith wrote: > "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: > >Knowing which holding makes > >the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the > >game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a > >straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if > >you raise instead of closing the round with a call. > > And some yahoos *don't* know all of the above. It isn't your job to > wise them up so that they stop losing their chips, *especially* not > during a hand. Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If you can only beat players when they don't know the rules of the game or aren't paying any attention at all, maybe it's time to move on. I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? How about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've thought it was only 75 and called? Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever played a game of poker in his life. You want the newbie to come back, don't you? Jesse No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 14, 2006, 12:04 PM Post #155 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 13 2006 6:35 PM, Jesse wrote: > > > Backslider23 wrote: > > > Maybe what we should do is stop tipping dealers for pushing us a pot, and > > > instead tip them when they do something worthwhile. Like, if a dealer > > > tells somebody to stop pointing out the nuts, or stop trying to guess > > > other people's hands, we slip him 2.0 x 10^0 bone, and let him know we > > > appreciate it. > > > > What's so bad about pointing out the nuts? Knowing which holding makes > > the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the > > game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a > > straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if > > you raise instead of closing the round with a call. > > > > Jesse > > > One player to a hand is amongst the most basic of rules. If somebody > opens his mouth and points out what the nut holding is he may be helping > another player. Here's an example from when I first started playing: > > A 10-20 game at Foxwoods. The final board read A-3-3-7-9. I'll 'never' > forget it. I held AA. The betting went to 7 raises and somebody not in > the hand said something like 'Wow, Aces full against 4 3's.' OMG, I > thought, GD, IT!, CURSES and RATS! Of course, I stopped raising. The > player with the 4 3's almost had a stroke and looked like he wanted to > strangle the person who opened his big, fat, stupid, idiot mouth. > > > HB Oddly enough, I had a talkative table at Foxwoods once also. 10/20 game. Actually, I think it was a Kill pot in the 5/10 game. I had AJ in the BB and the board read on the turn AA5A. The guy who had raised pre-flop and I were raising back and forth and it had reached six raises when someone said "there's only one more Ace in the deck" and someone else said "Unless it's a defective deck" and they started to go on and on about what would happen if it WERE a defective deck. And my opponent ignored them, it turned out he didn't speak English, and got all of my chips in the middle and most of his. With KK. I didn't react to the first comment because I didn't want to call my opponent's attention to it. However, I WAS wondering what Foxwoods would do about a defective deck. Refund everyone's chips and hand out a meal voucher? Will in New Haven -- > > --- > : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 14, 2006, 12:25 PM Post #156 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 14 2006 9:33 AM, Jesse wrote: > Peg Smith wrote: > > "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Knowing which holding makes > > >the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the > > >game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a > > >straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if > > >you raise instead of closing the round with a call. > > > > And some yahoos *don't* know all of the above. It isn't your job to > > wise them up so that they stop losing their chips, *especially* not > > during a hand. > > Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If > you can only beat players when they don't know the rules of the game or > aren't paying any attention at all, maybe it's time to move on. > > I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? How > about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high > flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big > blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after > you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've > thought it was only 75 and called? > > Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves > whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else > points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever > played a game of poker in his life. You want the newbie to come back, > don't you? > > Jesse If you will not be convinced by us then perhaps a floor person at the b&m you play at can. Go ask one if it is proper for you to mention what is the nuts on every hand, what dangers lie on every board. You'll notice that the dealer doesn't make the announcements that you've listed. They may be common in home games but you will not find a b&m poker room where the dealer says things like 'If you have K-Q you've got the best possible hand.' I'll let you know for a certain fact what will happen if you were at my table and did what you're defending. I'd call over a floor person and have them make you stop it or be made to leave the game. And I would get the ruling I wanted every single time. HB ---  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

Peg Smith New User PegSmithNow@aol.comnojunk Sep 14, 2006, 1:01 PM Post #157 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: >Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If >you can only beat players when they don't know the rules of the game or >aren't paying any attention at all, maybe it's time to move on. Poker is about exploiting others' mistakes. I'm happy when they make *any* mistake, and I don't need you correcting their mistakes. >I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) >to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do you not understand? >How >about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high >flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big >blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after >you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've >thought it was only 75 and called? Running the game and making sure that players are advised of action isn't the same as playing their hands for them. Now you're being facetious. >Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves >whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else >points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever >played a game of poker in his life. You want the newbie to come back, >don't you? I want him to play his hand all by himself. I don't want you to help him play it. Peg No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 14, 2006, 2:34 PM Post #158 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Jesse wrote: > Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves > whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else > points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever > played a game of poker in his life. If the information is obvious to everyone, then making the comment serves no purpose. If the information is not obvious to everyone, then the comment inappropriately helps at least one player. No Karma

Gary Carson New User garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu Sep 14, 2006, 4:35 PM Post #159 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   It's pretty simple.  Don't comment on a hand, or give advice on a hand, while the hand is in progress.  Period. When the hand's over you can explain things all you want and give all the advice you want.  Well, not all the advice.  It's usually against the rules to make rude comments about how someone played. On Sep 14 2006 10:33 AM, Jesse wrote: > Peg Smith wrote: > > "Jesse" wrote: > > >Knowing which holding makes > > >the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the > > >game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a > > >straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if > > >you raise instead of closing the round with a call. > > > > And some yahoos *don't* know all of the above. It isn't your job to > > wise them up so that they stop losing their chips, *especially* not > > during a hand. > > Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If > you can only beat players when they don't know the rules of the game or > aren't paying any attention at all, maybe it's time to move on. > > I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? How > about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high > flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big > blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after > you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've > thought it was only 75 and called? > > Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves > whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else > points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever > played a game of poker in his life. You want the newbie to come back, > don't you? > > Jesse Gary Carson http://www.garycarson.com _______________________________________________________________ Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Irish Mike" New User mjostar@ameritech.net Sep 14, 2006, 7:32 PM Post #160 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it." I play in cash games with guys who are there to earn their living. If you ever pulled a stunt like that I promise you it would only happen once. Because the second time you shot off your mouth and cost one of those guys money you'd be in a fight and thrown out of the game. The rule is simple. When you're not in the hand, keep your fucking mouth shut. Irish Mike "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message news:edcot3x5or.ln2@recgroups.com... > On Sep 14 2006 9:33 AM, Jesse wrote: > >> Peg Smith wrote: >> > "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >Knowing which holding makes >> > >the nut hand on a given board is just part of knowing the rules of the >> > >game, like knowing the chip denominations, or knowing a flush beats a >> > >straight, or knowing that someone else will be able to reraise you if >> > >you raise instead of closing the round with a call. >> > >> > And some yahoos *don't* know all of the above. It isn't your job to >> > wise them up so that they stop losing their chips, *especially* not >> > during a hand. >> >> Not anyone's job, perhaps, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If >> you can only beat players when they don't know the rules of the game or >> aren't paying any attention at all, maybe it's time to move on. >> >> I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) >> to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? How >> about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high >> flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big >> blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after >> you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've >> thought it was only 75 and called? >> >> Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves >> whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else >> points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever >> played a game of poker in his life. You want the newbie to come back, >> don't you? >> >> Jesse > > > If you will not be convinced by us then perhaps a floor person at the b&m > you play at can. Go ask one if it is proper for you to mention what is > the nuts on every hand, what dangers lie on every board. You'll notice > that the dealer doesn't make the announcements that you've listed. They > may be common in home games but you will not find a b&m poker room where > the dealer says things like 'If you have K-Q you've got the best possible > hand.' I'll let you know for a certain fact what will happen if you were > at my table and did what you're defending. I'd call over a floor person > and have them make you stop it or be made to leave the game. And I would > get the ruling I wanted every single time. > > > HB > > --- > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com > > No Karma

Joe Long New User nospam@spam.com Sep 14, 2006, 7:41 PM Post #161 of 181(1996 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Jesse wrote: ... > I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? How > about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high > flop? Damn straight I would. If YOU are in the hand and want to point out to your opponents that the third flush card (that made your flush) just hit the board, go right ahead. If not, keep your mouth shut during the hand. > How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big > blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after > you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've > thought it was only 75 and called? Different situation. The dealer is just doing his job. Although normally only the dealer should be saying these things during a hand. > Sure, if the guy can't figure this stuff out for himself, he deserves > whatever he gets, but it's pretty dumb to complain when someone else > points out information that should be obvious to anyone who's ever > played a game of poker in his life. You might not think the same if it was some loudmouth showoff costing YOU bets by helping your opponents during a hand. You want the newbie to come back, > don't you? If you want to point out to the "newbie" whose straight lost to my flush that he should have considered the possibility of a flush, AFTER the hand is over, you can do so. I'm not saying it's smart, but it doesn't violate "one player to a hand." -- Joe Long aka ChipRider Somewhere on the Range No Karma

"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 15, 2006, 1:29 AM Post #162 of 181(1994 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Peg Smith wrote: > "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: > >I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > >to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? > > Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do > you not understand? The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would be. "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. > >How > >about pointing out the ace that comes on the turn after a king-high > >flop? How about mentioning that he has the option to raise from the big > >blind? Do you complain when the dealer announces "300 to call" after > >you toss out three black chips, since some idiot at the table might've > >thought it was only 75 and called? > > Running the game and making sure that players are advised of action > isn't the same as playing their hands for them. Now you're being > facetious. No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, not any strategy or experience. Let's say it isn't the dealer making the announcement. You throw out three black chips, your opponent says "75, huh?" and someone who's folded says "No, that's 300." Is he giving away information and preventing you from making a living, or just keeping the game fair? Jesse No Karma

"Eric Lindholm" New User someone@microsoft.com Sep 15, 2006, 2:07 AM Post #163 of 181(1994 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   > No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip > denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any > different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it > is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, > not any strategy or experience. This is a stupid argument. The rules of hold'em are the same everywhere. Chip denominations and colors vary from one location to another. There's a big difference between not knowing how to play the game and not being up to speed on the quirks of a particular setting. No Karma

"XaQ Morphy" New User a1c5905@webnntp.invalid Sep 15, 2006, 10:08 AM Post #164 of 181(1994 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post > The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would > be. > > "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's > hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. > No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip > denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any > different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it > is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, > not any strategy or experience. > > Let's say it isn't the dealer making the announcement. You throw out > three black chips, your opponent says "75, huh?" and someone who's > folded says "No, that's 300." Is he giving away information and > preventing you from making a living, or just keeping the game fair? You seem to be pretty thick, so I'll try to describe a situation without using too many big words. This was lifted from a post well over a year ago. Situation, typical casino limit holdem game, with no cap to raises headsup. Player A has a straight flush. Player B has the A high flush, and they are putting in several raises on the river. It's obvious that player B doesn't think he's beat, and that he is willing to put his stack in. Let's say you are player A. You have the straight flush, the immortal nuts, but even better, you know for a fact your opponent has an A high flush and is going to end up putting his stack in, one raise at a time. Now...after 7 raises, someone else at the table says "wow, looks like someone has the straight flush" and at this point, the A high flush flips over his cards, folds, and says "wow, I didn't see that, thanks pal, you just saved me a lot of money!" How would you feel now? Morphy http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com ________________________________________________________________________  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

Joe Long New User nospam@spam.com Sep 15, 2006, 9:56 PM Post #165 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Jesse wrote: > Peg Smith wrote: >> "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) >>> to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? >> Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do >> you not understand? > > The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would > be. > > "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's > hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. Are you really as obtuse as you are acting? It is just WRONG to say anything during a hand that may influence a player's action. There is NO practical difference between your two examples, other than that the first may get through to a player too stupid to "get it" from the second. In some places, saying either one could get your legs broken out in the parking lot. Why do you have such a problem with just KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT about what people might have during the play of a hand? Are you so insecure that you have to prove to people that you can read a board? ... > No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip > denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any > different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it > is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, > not any strategy or experience. They are completely different. If you try to call a $300 bet with $75, the dealer will correct you. If two players keep raising the dealer will not caution them that they can't both have the nuts. > Let's say it isn't the dealer making the announcement. You throw out > three black chips, your opponent says "75, huh?" and someone who's > folded says "No, that's 300." Is he giving away information and > preventing you from making a living, or just keeping the game fair? The best thing is for the dealer to tell him, although as the player is just clarifying the bet amount it is not the same problem as announcing what the nut hand is. Suppose you are one of three players left at the river, where the board is the nuts. You are first to act. You bet hoping a player won't realize he can't lose and will fold, but while the next player is thinking about it ... holding up his cards like he's about to fold ... some yahoo says "Hey, the board is the nuts, why did you bet?" and the guy calls instead. You would be happy with that, I suppose. Anyway, people have given you a dozen different examples where a loudmouth influences the action improperly. It is against the rules of poker and it is against the principles of the game. Doing it doesn't make you look like a knowledgeable player, it makes you look like a blowhard. -- Joe Long aka ChipRider Somewhere on the Range No Karma

"James L. Hankins" New User jhankins5@cox.net[no spam] Sep 15, 2006, 10:24 PM Post #166 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   "Joe Long" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message news:WsOdnVykWPV6xJbYnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@giganews.com... > Jesse wrote: >> Peg Smith wrote: >>> "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) >>>> to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? >>> Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do >>> you not understand? >> >> The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would >> be. >> >> "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's >> hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. > > Are you really as obtuse as you are acting? It is just WRONG to say > anything during a hand that may influence a player's action. There is NO > practical difference between your two examples, other than that the first > may get through to a player too stupid to "get it" from the second. In > some places, saying either one could get your legs broken out in the > parking lot. > > Why do you have such a problem with just KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT about > what people might have during the play of a hand? Are you so insecure > that you have to prove to people that you can read a board? > > ... >> No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip >> denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any >> different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it >> is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, >> not any strategy or experience. > > They are completely different. If you try to call a $300 bet with $75, > the dealer will correct you. If two players keep raising the dealer will > not caution them that they can't both have the nuts. > >> Let's say it isn't the dealer making the announcement. You throw out >> three black chips, your opponent says "75, huh?" and someone who's >> folded says "No, that's 300." Is he giving away information and >> preventing you from making a living, or just keeping the game fair? > > The best thing is for the dealer to tell him, although as the player is > just clarifying the bet amount it is not the same problem as announcing > what the nut hand is. > > Suppose you are one of three players left at the river, where the board is > the nuts. You are first to act. You bet hoping a player won't realize he > can't lose and will fold, but while the next player is thinking about it > ... holding up his cards like he's about to fold ... some yahoo says "Hey, > the board is the nuts, why did you bet?" and the guy calls instead. You > would be happy with that, I suppose. > > Anyway, people have given you a dozen different examples where a loudmouth > influences the action improperly. It is against the rules of poker and it > is against the principles of the game. Doing it doesn't make you look > like a knowledgeable player, it makes you look like a blowhard. I take it even further than that. If I am not in the hand I don't say anything about anything. One time we had a pretty large home-game tournament and it got down to the final three players. Several of us who had busted were playing in cash games but railing the final table when a big hand came up. One hand came up where one player had something like AJ and another had A10. The player with AJ tabled his hand and the other player tabled his hand, face up for all to see, saying something like, "looks like you notched me" then he mucked it. As the dealer pushed the pot to player with AJ, I locked eyes with another railbird and realized we were apparently the only two in the room who recognized that the pot should have been split because the board played four cards and the aces in both players' hand played. We both kind of shrugged and didn't say anything. That situation is kind of a close call, similar to the time Hellmuth piped up that one time at the WSOP. But my view of it is that I was a railbird, not even at the table, much less in the hand, and it's not really my place to correct mistakes like that. Plus, if you try it, it just causes controversy and problems. So, the best rule in almost all circumstances is to just keep your mouth shut. Televised poker tournaments have made a bunch rules-nits out of a bunch of players. In my home game, we let the live ones do just about anything they wanted. One guy, the true maniac, liked to table his cards without folding, string bet, show losing hands to his neighbor but not to the winner before mucking them, just little shit like that. Nobody cared because he was so bad and dropped so much money in the game it was wayyyyy negative EV to call him on piddly shit like that. If he string bet, who gives a shit? It's not like he gained any information about anyone's hand. If he showed someone else his hand and then mucked (he would violate the "show one, show all" rule) it didn't matter because if you didn't know what he had anyway you were a worse player than he was. Whenever he said, "I just call" out of turn, everyone knew he was going to raise and nobody gave a shit or jumped and said, "Sir the rules say that verbal declarations are binding.....blah, blah, blah..." Buncha uptight pussies nowadays, I say! No Karma

"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 16, 2006, 1:18 AM Post #167 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post XaQ Morphy wrote: > You seem to be pretty thick, so I'll try to describe a situation without > using too many big words. This was lifted from a post well over a year > ago. Situation, typical casino limit holdem game, with no cap to raises > headsup. Player A has a straight flush. Player B has the A high flush, > and they are putting in several raises on the river. It's obvious that > player B doesn't think he's beat, and that he is willing to put his stack > in. > > Let's say you are player A. You have the straight flush, the immortal > nuts, but even better, you know for a fact your opponent has an A high > flush and is going to end up putting his stack in, one raise at a time. > > Now...after 7 raises, someone else at the table says "wow, looks like > someone has the straight flush" and at this point, the A high flush flips > over his cards, folds, and says "wow, I didn't see that, thanks pal, you > just saved me a lot of money!" > > How would you feel now? Victorious but chagrined. Kind of like when that pizza parlor realized I was using the same coupons over and over again without ever handing them in. I expect them to take the coupon after I use it - if they forget to do that, hurray for me, but it's not like I really deserve free pizzas forever, and I'd hardly have grounds to complain if someone pointed it out. Likewise, I expect someone to know when the board makes a straight flush possible; if he doesn't realize that and I can use it to my advantage, hurray for me, but I wouldn't plan on him remaining ignorant forever. Jesse No Karma

"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 16, 2006, 1:39 AM Post #168 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Joe Long wrote: > Jesse wrote: > > Peg Smith wrote: > >> "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > >>> to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? > >> Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do > >> you not understand? > > > > The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would > > be. > > > > "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's > > hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. > > Are you really as obtuse as you are acting? It is just WRONG to say > anything during a hand that may influence a player's action. There is > NO practical difference between your two examples, other than that the > first may get through to a player too stupid to "get it" from the > second. In some places, saying either one could get your legs broken > out in the parking lot. Hell, in some places, just looking at a guy funny can get you shot. But if a guy shoots you for looking at him, *he's* the one who's out of line. > Why do you have such a problem with just KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT about > what people might have during the play of a hand? Are you so insecure > that you have to prove to people that you can read a board? Are you so insecure that you think you can't win if anyone points out to your opponents the cards that are sitting right in front of them? > > No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip > > denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any > > different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it > > is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, > > not any strategy or experience. > > They are completely different. If you try to call a $300 bet with $75, > the dealer will correct you. If you say "I call", thinking the bet is only 75 when it's really 300, you'd better hope they bend the verbal bet rule for you when you realize your mistake. > Suppose you are one of three players left at the river, where the board > is the nuts. You are first to act. You bet hoping a player won't > realize he can't lose and will fold, but while the next player is > thinking about it ... holding up his cards like he's about to fold ... > some yahoo says "Hey, the board is the nuts, why did you bet?" and the > guy calls instead. You would be happy with that, I suppose. I rarely pull weird stunts like that, but when I do, I don't expect them to work. Am I banking on my opponent being a complete idiot *and* everyone in the room helping me pull one over on some poor guy who doesn't know the rules of the game? Instead of trying to make a living that way, I might as well go beat up retarded kids for their lunch money. Jesse No Karma

Joe Long New User nospam@spam.com Sep 16, 2006, 3:37 AM Post #169 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Jesse wrote: > Joe Long wrote: >> Jesse wrote: >> Why do you have such a problem with just KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT about >> what people might have during the play of a hand? Are you so insecure >> that you have to prove to people that you can read a board? > > Are you so insecure that you think you can't win if anyone points out > to your opponents the cards that are sitting right in front of them? Well, you've proven to everyone reading this that you're hopeless. It doesn't matter how bad a player may be, it's not your job to educate him during the play of a hand. If you just have to keep showboating by pointing out things about the board, you're going to continue to have people object to your doing that. No amount of "I know I am, but what are you" will change that. In poker, it's "one player to a hand." >>> No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip >>> denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any >>> different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it >>> is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, >>> not any strategy or experience. >> They are completely different. If you try to call a $300 bet with $75, >> the dealer will correct you. > > If you say "I call", thinking the bet is only 75 when it's really 300, > you'd better hope they bend the verbal bet rule for you when you > realize your mistake. If you say "I call" not knowing the value of the chips, you just learned an expensive lesson. You probably won't do that again. >> Suppose you are one of three players left at the river, where the board >> is the nuts. You are first to act. You bet hoping a player won't >> realize he can't lose and will fold, but while the next player is >> thinking about it ... holding up his cards like he's about to fold ... >> some yahoo says "Hey, the board is the nuts, why did you bet?" and the >> guy calls instead. You would be happy with that, I suppose. > > I rarely pull weird stunts like that, but when I do, I don't expect > them to work. They don't work often, but they do work sometimes. Unless there is some blowhard in the game shooting off his mouth. Paying attention is part of the game too, you know. > Am I banking on my opponent being a complete idiot *and* > everyone in the room helping me pull one over on some poor guy who > doesn't know the rules of the game? No one's asking you to help them win. You are expected to keep your trap shut and not help someone lose. > Instead of trying to make a living > that way, I might as well go beat up retarded kids for their lunch > money. Beating up the retarded kid is worse than shooting off your mouth affecting the play of hands at a poker table ... but its only a matter of degree. Both are wrong. > Jesse -- Joe Long aka ChipRider Somewhere on the Range No Karma

"Jesse" New User jmcgrew@gmail.com Sep 16, 2006, 4:55 AM Post #170 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Joe Long wrote: > Jesse wrote: > > Instead of trying to make a living > > that way, I might as well go beat up retarded kids for their lunch > > money. > > Beating up the retarded kid is worse than shooting off your mouth > affecting the play of hands at a poker table ... but its only a matter > of degree. Both are wrong. As is taking advantage of players who don't know the rules, then bitching at anyone who tries to correct their ignorance. By doing that, you're essentially demanding the right to play in a rigged game. Jesse No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 16, 2006, 11:04 AM Post #171 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   James L. Hankins wrote: > "Joe Long" <nospam@spam.com> wrote in message > news:WsOdnVykWPV6xJbYnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@giganews.com... > > Jesse wrote: > >> Peg Smith wrote: > >>> "Jesse" <jmcgrew@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> I mean, would you complain about someone pointing out three (or four) > >>>> to a flush when there's also a possible straight on the board? > >>> Of course I would! And I have! What part of "one player to a hand" do > >>> you not understand? > >> > >> The part where it applies to pointing out what the nut holding would > >> be. > >> > >> "He must have pocket 3s; you should fold" is playing someone else's > >> hand for him. "It sure would be nice to have pocket 3s here" isn't. > > > > Are you really as obtuse as you are acting? It is just WRONG to say > > anything during a hand that may influence a player's action. There is NO > > practical difference between your two examples, other than that the first > > may get through to a player too stupid to "get it" from the second. In > > some places, saying either one could get your legs broken out in the > > parking lot. > > > > Why do you have such a problem with just KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT about > > what people might have during the play of a hand? Are you so insecure > > that you have to prove to people that you can read a board? > > > > ... > >> No, not really. If a player who doesn't understand the chip > >> denominations thinks the bet is only 75 instead of 300, how is that any > >> different from thinking the nut hand is something other than what it > >> is? They're both just simple facts derived from the rules of the game, > >> not any strategy or experience. > > > > They are completely different. If you try to call a $300 bet with $75, > > the dealer will correct you. If two players keep raising the dealer will > > not caution them that they can't both have the nuts. > > > >> Let's say it isn't the dealer making the announcement. You throw out > >> three black chips, your opponent says "75, huh?" and someone who's > >> folded says "No, that's 300." Is he giving away information and > >> preventing you from making a living, or just keeping the game fair? > > > > The best thing is for the dealer to tell him, although as the player is > > just clarifying the bet amount it is not the same problem as announcing > > what the nut hand is. > > > > Suppose you are one of three players left at the river, where the board is > > the nuts. You are first to act. You bet hoping a player won't realize he > > can't lose and will fold, but while the next player is thinking about it > > ... holding up his cards like he's about to fold ... some yahoo says "Hey, > > the board is the nuts, why did you bet?" and the guy calls instead. You > > would be happy with that, I suppose. > > > > Anyway, people have given you a dozen different examples where a loudmouth > > influences the action improperly. It is against the rules of poker and it > > is against the principles of the game. Doing it doesn't make you look > > like a knowledgeable player, it makes you look like a blowhard. > > > > I take it even further than that. If I am not in the hand I don't say > anything about anything. > > One time we had a pretty large home-game tournament and it got down to the > final three players. Several of us who had busted were playing in cash > games but railing the final table when a big hand came up. One hand came up > where one player had something like AJ and another had A10. The player with > AJ tabled his hand and the other player tabled his hand, face up for all to > see, saying something like, "looks like you notched me" then he mucked it. > As the dealer pushed the pot to player with AJ, I locked eyes with another > railbird and realized we were apparently the only two in the room who > recognized that the pot should have been split because the board played four > cards and the aces in both players' hand played. We both kind of shrugged > and didn't say anything. If the dealer doesn't say "Jack doesn't play," then _I_ will if I am in the tournament. Every result between the other players can have an impact on my chances. I don't even wait to calculate which result would be better for my chances. If I am watching, I don't know what I would do. It has never come up. I don't think the cash-game situation is as clear but I think "cards speak" means that the dealer should have the first responsibility to read the cards. I do not think it means that a dealer's error should be set in stone and I will speak up. The last something like this happened, however, the player who was being incorrectly awarded the pot, a big pot, spoke up and said "no, it's his pot." The guy with the hard-to-read straight had not mucked and probably would have said something himself. It was hard for that DEALER to read. > > That situation is kind of a close call, similar to the time Hellmuth piped > up that one time at the WSOP. But my view of it is that I was a railbird, > not even at the table, much less in the hand, and it's not really my place > to correct mistakes like that. Plus, if you try it, it just causes > controversy and problems. So, the best rule in almost all circumstances is > to just keep your mouth shut. > > Televised poker tournaments have made a bunch rules-nits out of a bunch of > players. > > In my home game, we let the live ones do just about anything they wanted. > One guy, the true maniac, liked to table his cards without folding, string > bet, show losing hands to his neighbor but not to the winner before mucking > them, just little shit like that. Nobody cared because he was so bad and > dropped so much money in the game it was wayyyyy negative EV to call him on > piddly shit like that. If he string bet, who gives a shit? It's not like > he gained any information about anyone's hand. If he showed someone else > his hand and then mucked (he would violate the "show one, show all" rule) it > didn't matter because if you didn't know what he had anyway you were a worse > player than he was. Whenever he said, "I just call" out of turn, everyone > knew he was going to raise and nobody gave a shit or jumped and said, "Sir > the rules say that verbal declarations are binding.....blah, blah, blah..." > > Buncha uptight pussies nowadays, I say! We had a guy in our game for a long time who used to deal over a highly-polished lighter and see every card he dealt to everyone. He was a big loser on other people's deals, so we let him slide. If we got a new person in the game, we clued him in. We even gave the guy some action on his deals. Will in New Haven -- "It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -Malcolm X, March 12, 1964 No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 16, 2006, 11:43 AM Post #172 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post James L. Hankins wrote: > One time we had a pretty large home-game tournament and it got down to the > final three players. Several of us who had busted were playing in cash > games but railing the final table when a big hand came up. One hand came up > where one player had something like AJ and another had A10. The player with > AJ tabled his hand and the other player tabled his hand, face up for all to > see, saying something like, "looks like you notched me" then he mucked it. > > As the dealer pushed the pot to player with AJ, I locked eyes with another > railbird and realized we were apparently the only two in the room who > recognized that the pot should have been split because the board played four > cards and the aces in both players' hand played. We both kind of shrugged > and didn't say anything. > > That situation is kind of a close call, similar to the time Hellmuth piped > up that one time at the WSOP. But my view of it is that I was a railbird, > not even at the table, much less in the hand, and it's not really my place > to correct mistakes like that. Plus, if you try it, it just causes > controversy and problems. So, the best rule in almost all circumstances is > to just keep your mouth shut. Robert's Rules goes 180 degrees after the showdown. It actually seems like an arbitrary distincion in the context of this discussion. 3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum. In your case, I'm not even sure that you would qualify as a player. No Karma

"James L. Hankins" New User jhankins5@cox.net[no spam] Sep 16, 2006, 12:29 PM Post #173 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1158421391.520055.116850@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > James L. Hankins wrote: >> One time we had a pretty large home-game tournament and it got down to >> the >> final three players. Several of us who had busted were playing in cash >> games but railing the final table when a big hand came up. One hand came >> up >> where one player had something like AJ and another had A10. The player >> with >> AJ tabled his hand and the other player tabled his hand, face up for all >> to >> see, saying something like, "looks like you notched me" then he mucked >> it. >> >> As the dealer pushed the pot to player with AJ, I locked eyes with >> another >> railbird and realized we were apparently the only two in the room who >> recognized that the pot should have been split because the board played >> four >> cards and the aces in both players' hand played. We both kind of >> shrugged >> and didn't say anything. >> >> That situation is kind of a close call, similar to the time Hellmuth >> piped >> up that one time at the WSOP. But my view of it is that I was a >> railbird, >> not even at the table, much less in the hand, and it's not really my >> place >> to correct mistakes like that. Plus, if you try it, it just causes >> controversy and problems. So, the best rule in almost all circumstances >> is >> to just keep your mouth shut. > > Robert's Rules goes 180 degrees after the showdown. It actually seems > like an arbitrary distincion in the context of this discussion. > > 3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of > chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, > has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep > mistakes of this nature to a minimum. > > In your case, I'm not even sure that you would qualify as a player. I probably don't qualify as a player when I'm playing. :)) But if I was the decider, I'd say the only persons who should say anything (in the tournament situation) are the players at the table and the dealer, and the floorperson if he/she sees it. In my situation, the third player at the table definitely had an interest in whether the whole pot or half the pot went to certain players. Here's an ethical delimma that will make your head hurt: what do you do if you're the third player in my situation, you notice it should be a split pot, but the error actually helps you out by awarding the entire pot to the weakest player still in? Do you say anything? Is this an angle shot? No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 16, 2006, 12:38 PM Post #174 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   James L. Hankins wrote: > "David Nicoson" <bigdavex@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1158421391.520055.116850@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > James L. Hankins wrote: > >> One time we had a pretty large home-game tournament and it got down to > >> the > >> final three players. Several of us who had busted were playing in cash > >> games but railing the final table when a big hand came up. One hand came > >> up > >> where one player had something like AJ and another had A10. The player > >> with > >> AJ tabled his hand and the other player tabled his hand, face up for all > >> to > >> see, saying something like, "looks like you notched me" then he mucked > >> it. > >> > >> As the dealer pushed the pot to player with AJ, I locked eyes with > >> another > >> railbird and realized we were apparently the only two in the room who > >> recognized that the pot should have been split because the board played > >> four > >> cards and the aces in both players' hand played. We both kind of > >> shrugged > >> and didn't say anything. > >> > >> That situation is kind of a close call, similar to the time Hellmuth > >> piped > >> up that one time at the WSOP. But my view of it is that I was a > >> railbird, > >> not even at the table, much less in the hand, and it's not really my > >> place > >> to correct mistakes like that. Plus, if you try it, it just causes > >> controversy and problems. So, the best rule in almost all circumstances > >> is > >> to just keep your mouth shut. > > > > Robert's Rules goes 180 degrees after the showdown. It actually seems > > like an arbitrary distincion in the context of this discussion. > > > > 3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of > > chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, > > has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep > > mistakes of this nature to a minimum. > > > > In your case, I'm not even sure that you would qualify as a player. > > > > I probably don't qualify as a player when I'm playing. :)) > > But if I was the decider, I'd say the only persons who should say anything > (in the tournament situation) are the players at the table and the dealer, > and the floorperson if he/she sees it. In my situation, the third player at > the table definitely had an interest in whether the whole pot or half the > pot went to certain players. > > Here's an ethical delimma that will make your head hurt: what do you do if > you're the third player in my situation, you notice it should be a split > pot, but the error actually helps you out by awarding the entire pot to the > weakest player still in? Do you say anything? Is this an angle shot? I think it would be an angle-shot NOT to say something. Will in New Haven -- "It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law." -Malcolm X, March 12, 1964 No Karma

"David Nicoson" New User bigdavex@yahoo.com Sep 16, 2006, 12:42 PM Post #175 of 181(1988 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Joe Long wrote: > Beating up the retarded kid is worse than shooting off your mouth > affecting the play of hands at a poker table ... but its only a matter > of degree. Both are wrong. What if the retarded kid talked about his hand? No Karma

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