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"Diane from Green Bay" New User hrdiane@aol.com Sep 7, 2006, 2:16 AM Post #51 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Howard, I *know* exactly what you are talking about similar to the other longer term players who have commented previously in this thread. Excellent job describing the frustrations we all face. As a higher playing lurker it happens in our games as well. I play mid limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor aside and explain what is happening. I have given up trying to get the dealers these days to understand what their job is. All they seem to worry about is counting the box, and the mechanics of getting the cards. Dealers appear genuinely afraid of the players. Floor is responsive and usually thanks me for the input. I then ask them to keep an eye on the table so they can see it for themselves and be able to act upon it. I also have returned home from some trips and sent letters to poker management about my observations and concerns and asked them to be sure the problems are addressed in their dealer meetings. Side bar.............dealer gross out on recent Vegas trip. At Binion's playing in their 2pm NL tourney. Dealer would lick his finger tips after every shuffle right before the pitch of the cards. I couldn't believe what i was seeing and he kept doing it every single hand. Finally i couldn't stand it any more and left the table to discuss with the tourney director guy -- he watched amazed and said he had "never noticed it until i pointed it out". He thanked me and then talked to the dealer during our next break. I obviously kept washing my hands at ever opportunity and wished i had my bottle of hand sanitizer with me. I would have placed it on the table and used it every time. Diane > Thank you for the complimentary remark. > > I did the same thing you did when I saw, finally, a dealer tell people to > keep quiet during the play of a hand. I told the floor person, and then > another, who said she'd bring the topic up for discussion at the next > dealer meeting. I also complimented the dealer right then and there, > loudly, so that the other players might better understand the point. But > there is no change. I'll probably hear from some of the lurkers here who > play higher as to whether or not these are problems in those games as well. > > > HB No Karma

"Eric Lindholm" New User blumberg.NO.lindholm.SPAM@verizon.net Sep 7, 2006, 2:18 AM Post #52 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post I haven't seen a response to this, but thanks for the great story. That really made me laugh. No Karma

"Eric Lindholm" New User blumberg.NO.lindholm.SPAM@verizon.net Sep 7, 2006, 2:39 AM Post #53 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post I really try to fight off the "table captain" urge. Many of these players don't know how to have fun without poor etiqutte, and if they aren't having fun, they're harder to beat. I'll eventually gripe if it's something that genuinely interferes with game play, like acting out of turn or string betting. But if it's just lousy manners or insensitive farting around, I try not to interfere. If their chat makes bluffs impossible, I don't attempt them. Usually they're playing badly enough that I want to encourage them to be comfortable. If I have to say something, I say it to the dealer, and if the dealer ignores me a few times, I give up. I remember many years ago railbirding a game while waiting for a seat. There was a guy who seemed pleasant enough and was killing the game, several racks in front of him. I studied him for a while and realized that he was encouraging a lighthearted, informal atmosphere, joking with his opponents about their bad manners or whatever else it was that they found so hilarious. And since he was "one of them," they trusted him, and he was robbing them blind, right and left, stealing pots so often that I was sure he couldn't be hitting that many hands. So finally I got my seat, and like an idiot, I called him out, telling him I knew what he was up to and giving him a little smirk. Well he clammed up, the table clammed up with him, he left after about five minutes with his massive profit, and the game was no good anymore. That was an expensive lesson. No Karma

Befunge Sudoku New User daviddotbudd@manchester.ac.uk Sep 7, 2006, 4:03 AM Post #54 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post In article <vtt3t3xc45.ln2@recgroups.com>, a1695 @webnntp.invalid says... > > I've heard that player behavior is much better in the UK. Can you confirm > this? I've heard stories about American players getting a little lecture > before they sit down to make sure they understand what isn't proper > etiquette. Um.... Maybe it is. If it's really as bad as your rant makes out over your side, yes it definitely is a bit better here. I wouldn't like to say how much better, I've only played in a couple of places. -- The accident involved dark chocolate. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5264566.stm?ls No Karma

Travel New User Travel.2drmmq@no-mx..pokerhelper.com Sep 7, 2006, 9:02 AM Post #55 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Diane from Green Bay Wrote: > Howard, > I *know* exactly what you are talking about similar to the othe > longer > term players who have commented previously in this thread. > > Excellent job describing the frustrations we all face. > > As a higher playing lurker it happens in our games as well. I pla > mid > limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, > Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floo > aside > and explain what is happening. I have given up trying to get the > dealers these days to understand what their job is. All they seem to > worry about is counting the box, and the mechanics of getting the > cards. Dealers appear genuinely afraid of the players. > > Floor is responsive and usually thanks me for the input. I then ask > them to keep an eye on the table so they can see it for themselves and > be able to act upon it. I also have returned home from some trips and > sent letters to poker management about my observations and concern > and > asked them to be sure the problems are addressed in their dealer > meetings. > > Side bar.............dealer gross out on recent Vegas trip. At > Binion's playing in their 2pm NL tourney. Dealer would lick hi > finger > tips after every shuffle right before the pitch of the cards. I > couldn't believe what i was seeing and he kept doing it every single > hand. Finally i couldn't stand it any more and left the table to > discuss with the tourney director guy -- he watched amazed and said he > had "never noticed it until i pointed it out". He thanked me and then > talked to the dealer during our next break. I obviously kept washing > my hands at ever opportunity and wished i had my bottle of hand > sanitizer with me. I would have placed it on the table and used it > every time. > > Diane > > > > > Thank you for the complimentary remark. > > > > I did the same thing you did when I saw, finally, a dealer tel > people to > > keep quiet during the play of a hand. I told the floor person, an > then > > another, who said she'd bring the topic up for discussion at th > next > > dealer meeting. I also complimented the dealer right then an > there, > > loudly, so that the other players might better understand the point. > But > > there is no change. I'll probably hear from some of the lurkers her > who > > play higher as to whether or not these are problems in those games a > well. > > > > > > HB I Think a few less "Diane From Green Bay", pushy, excessively self assertive, big mouths (and they're multiplying) would also be a step i the right direction -- Trave - http://www.pokerhelper.com RGP Access News Forums - Report Spam to abuse@pokerhelper.co No Karma

"Irish Mike" New User mjostar@ameritech.net Sep 7, 2006, 10:00 AM Post #56 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post I've played in more than 100 poker rooms in eight countries and, sad to say, America has the worst poker etiquette. However, there are exceptions. About three or four years ago I spent a week playing tournaments and ring games at Canterbury Downs in Shakopee, Mn (near Minneapolis). I thought the room was very well run - only a little mild profanity and nearly zero player or dealer abuse. I talked to one of the floor men about it. He said management decided that they were not going to put up with the bad player behavior they saw in other poker rooms they had worked in. He said when they first opened the poker room they quickly identified five or six loud-mouthed trouble makers and threw them out. The other players got the message. I don't know what Canterbury is like today but when I was there, they were definitely doing it right. Irish Mike "Befunge Sudoku" <daviddotbudd@manchester.ac.uk> wrote in message news:MPG.1f69e47068ce550c98a8de@localnews.mcc.ac.uk... > In article <vtt3t3xc45.ln2@recgroups.com>, a1695 > @webnntp.invalid says... >> >> I've heard that player behavior is much better in the UK. Can you >> confirm >> this? I've heard stories about American players getting a little lecture >> before they sit down to make sure they understand what isn't proper >> etiquette. > > Um.... Maybe it is. If it's really as bad as your rant makes > out over your side, yes it definitely is a bit better here. I > wouldn't like to say how much better, I've only played in a > couple of places. > -- > The accident involved dark chocolate. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5264566.stm?ls No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 7, 2006, 10:09 AM Post #57 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 8:00 AM, Irish Mike wrote: > I've played in more than 100 poker rooms in eight countries and, sad to say, > America has the worst poker etiquette. > However, there are exceptions. About three or four years ago I spent a week > playing tournaments and ring games at Canterbury Downs in Shakopee, Mn (near > Minneapolis). I thought the room was very well run - only a little mild > profanity and nearly zero player or dealer abuse. > > I talked to one of the floor men about it. He said management decided that > they were not going to put up with the bad player behavior they saw in other > poker rooms they had worked in. He said when they first opened the poker > room they quickly identified five or six loud-mouthed trouble makers and > threw them out. The other players got the message. > > I don't know what Canterbury is like today but when I was there, they were > definitely doing it right. > > Irish Mike Now that you have brought it up I realize that I didn't mention dealer abuse regarding Casino Arizona because they have zero tolerance for it. Because of that it completely skipped my mind. I think that even in the notorious LA rooms that situation has been effectively improved. HB -----  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 7, 2006, 10:17 AM Post #58 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 7:02 AM, Travel wrote: > Diane from Green Bay Wrote: > > Howard, > > I *know* exactly what you are talking about similar to the other > > longer > > term players who have commented previously in this thread. > > > > Excellent job describing the frustrations we all face. > > > > As a higher playing lurker it happens in our games as well. I play > > mid > > limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, > > Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor > > aside > > and explain what is happening. I have given up trying to get the > > dealers these days to understand what their job is. All they seem to > > worry about is counting the box, and the mechanics of getting the > > cards. Dealers appear genuinely afraid of the players. > > > > Floor is responsive and usually thanks me for the input. I then ask > > them to keep an eye on the table so they can see it for themselves and > > be able to act upon it. I also have returned home from some trips and > > sent letters to poker management about my observations and concerns > > and > > asked them to be sure the problems are addressed in their dealer > > meetings. > > > > Side bar.............dealer gross out on recent Vegas trip. At > > Binion's playing in their 2pm NL tourney. Dealer would lick his > > finger > > tips after every shuffle right before the pitch of the cards. I > > couldn't believe what i was seeing and he kept doing it every single > > hand. Finally i couldn't stand it any more and left the table to > > discuss with the tourney director guy -- he watched amazed and said he > > had "never noticed it until i pointed it out". He thanked me and then > > talked to the dealer during our next break. I obviously kept washing > > my hands at ever opportunity and wished i had my bottle of hand > > sanitizer with me. I would have placed it on the table and used it > > every time. > > > > Diane > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the complimentary remark. > > > > > > I did the same thing you did when I saw, finally, a dealer tell > > people to > > > keep quiet during the play of a hand. I told the floor person, and > > then > > > another, who said she'd bring the topic up for discussion at the > > next > > > dealer meeting. I also complimented the dealer right then and > > there, > > > loudly, so that the other players might better understand the point. > > But > > > there is no change. I'll probably hear from some of the lurkers here > > who > > > play higher as to whether or not these are problems in those games as > > well. > > > > > > > > > HB > > > I Think a few less "Diane From Green Bay", pushy, excessively self- > assertive, big mouths (and they're multiplying) would also be a step in > the right direction. > > > -- > Travel In what way was this reply helpful other than letting you jab at a nice person against whom you have a mystery grudge, assuredly undeserved? HB ----  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 7, 2006, 10:26 AM Post #59 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 12:39 AM, Eric Lindholm wrote: > I really try to fight off the "table captain" urge. Many of these players > don't know how to have fun without poor etiqutte, and if they aren't having > fun, they're harder to beat. I'll eventually gripe if it's something that > genuinely interferes with game play, like acting out of turn or string > betting. But if it's just lousy manners or insensitive farting around, I > try not to interfere. If their chat makes bluffs impossible, I don't > attempt them. Usually they're playing badly enough that I want to encourage > them to be comfortable. If I have to say something, I say it to the dealer, > and if the dealer ignores me a few times, I give up. This just about perfectly describes where I am at now. > > I remember many years ago railbirding a game while waiting for a seat. > There was a guy who seemed pleasant enough and was killing the game, several > racks in front of him. I studied him for a while and realized that he was > encouraging a lighthearted, informal atmosphere, joking with his opponents > about their bad manners or whatever else it was that they found so > hilarious. And since he was "one of them," they trusted him, and he was > robbing them blind, right and left, stealing pots so often that I was sure > he couldn't be hitting that many hands. So finally I got my seat, and like > an idiot, I called him out, telling him I knew what he was up to and giving > him a little smirk. Well he clammed up, the table clammed up with him, he > left after about five minutes with his massive profit, and the game was no > good anymore. That was an expensive lesson. Excellent point. HB -----  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Will_gamble" New User will_gamble2@yahoo.com Sep 7, 2006, 10:45 AM Post #60 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Well at least the most hallowed game or etiquette remains in tact. Golf. Just like Bobby Jones left it. Ahem. You won't see any 20 somethings screaming u-da-man or getting drunk around the greens. No sir, golf is still a gentleman's game. Ahem. ____________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

thedudeabides New User 43085069@recpoker.com Sep 7, 2006, 10:54 AM Post #61 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 1:16 AM, Diane from Green Bay wrote: > limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, > Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor aside Please explain why, at these limits, a simple yet blatant witholding of dealer tips wouldn't result in the desired changes within the first hour of taking your seat at such a disorderly table. If your shuttled into such a situation just stack what would have been the dealers tips into a little stack a little to the side of you regular stack (protect them with your cp between hands.) Whenever it gets really bad just start tapping that little short stack while glaring at the dealer. When he asks what's wrong, or heaven for bid "were those supposed to be mine?" just look him or her in the eye and explain that you don't tip for 'poor service'. Afterwards several other will probably join you in your boycott and there will be rapid changes. Usually it does the trick pretty dame quick. If not just let the little stack keep growing. When you get up to leave be sure to explain to the floor why his tip is also still in your pocket ;^)... _______________________________________________________________ The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"FaceDownAcesUp" New User superbeef00@yahoo.com Sep 7, 2006, 11:32 AM Post #62 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Looks like those glory dayz past some of you donks by. I'm starting to tear up just reading this thread. Newsflash donks-- It's a new day and age for poker. If you can't handle the trash talk and breeches of etiquette then you need to find a different game. We're the new breed of poker players and we're comin out guns blazin with our sunglasses, Ipods, cellphones, "if it weren't for the river there'd be no fish" tshirts, and a go-fuck urself attitude. Either sit there and luv it or just stay home. And you better not even think about playing table captain either; Your just as likely to get smacked in the mouth as you are check raised if you try and pop off gangsta at my table. No Karma

Kenneth Sloan New User sloan@cis.uab.edu Sep 7, 2006, 11:55 AM Post #63 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post PLAYING golf is a gentleman's game. WATCHING golf is (literally) watching grass grow - gotta do *sumthin* to liven up the party a bit, eh? "Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com> writes: > Well at least the most hallowed game or etiquette remains in tact. Golf. > Just like Bobby Jones left it. Ahem. You won't see any 20 somethings > screaming u-da-man or getting drunk around the greens. No sir, golf is > still a gentleman's game. Ahem. > > ____________________________________________________________________  > : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com > -- Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213 University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473 Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/ No Karma

"Irish Mike" New User mjostar@ameritech.net Sep 7, 2006, 12:54 PM Post #64 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "We're the new breed of poker players and we're comin out guns blazin with our sunglasses, Ipods, cellphones, "if it weren't for the river there'd be no fish" tshirts, and a go-fuck urself attitude" No, you're the same rude, loud-mouthed, dumb ass bastards I've been earning a living from for years. The only difference is that there are more of you. Irish Mike "FaceDownAcesUp" <superbeef00@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1157643146.137885.171090@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com... > Looks like those glory dayz past some of you donks by. I'm starting to > tear up just reading this thread. Newsflash donks-- It's a new day and > age for poker. If you can't handle the trash talk and breeches of > etiquette then you need to find a different game. > > We're the new breed of poker players and we're comin out guns blazin > with our sunglasses, Ipods, cellphones, "if it weren't for the river > there'd be no fish" tshirts, and a go-fuck urself attitude. Either sit > there and luv it or just stay home. And you better not even think about > playing table captain either; Your just as likely to get smacked in the > mouth as you are check raised if you try and pop off gangsta at my > table. > No Karma

"Irish Mike" New User mjostar@ameritech.net Sep 7, 2006, 1:30 PM Post #65 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "Please explain why, at these limits, a simple yet blatant witholding of dealer tips wouldn't result in the desired changes within the first hour of taking your seat at such a disorderly table. " I've sat on both sides of the table and can tell you that, in most cases, dealer problems are the direct result of the poker room management. If management has clear rules and policies and enforces them consistently, the dealers will follow them. Their jobs depend on it. However, in too many cases, floormen won't back the dealer when he /she is trying to control the table. They might jump to kiss a customer's ass when they point out something that irritates them but other wise just ignore the problems. They flip flop on decisions, back down from loud-mouthed locals, are inconsistent in enforcing rules and ignore dealer complaints or suggestions. Some bad floormen are just lazy and/or poorly trained but others are totally focused on the rake. Many times the most obnoxious players are the locals that sit in the poker room every day, which means they are paying a lot of rake. There's an old saying in business; "what gets rewarded, gets done". When a dealer tries to control a table, gets in a confrontation with an unruly player and the floorman refuses to back him up, the dealer quickly learns that this behavior doesn't get rewarded. The dealers just says, fuck it, why should I try to enforce rules that management doesn't care about. Why should I go out on a limb to confront bad behavior when all I'm doing is jeopardizing my own tokes. So if you see poker room behavior you don't like, stop trying to kill the messenger (dealer) and go straight to the root of the problem (management). Irish Mike "thedudeabides" <43085069@recpoker.com> wrote in message news:1157640868$866080@recpoker.com... > On Sep 7 2006 1:16 AM, Diane from Green Bay wrote: > >> limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, >> Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor aside > > > Please explain why, at these limits, a simple yet blatant > witholding of dealer tips wouldn't result in the desired changes within > the > first hour of taking your seat at such a disorderly table. > > If your shuttled into such a situation just stack what would have been the > dealers tips into a little stack a little to the side of you regular stack > (protect them with your cp between hands.) Whenever it gets really bad > just > start tapping that little short stack while glaring at the dealer. When he > asks > what's wrong, or heaven for bid "were those supposed to be mine?" just > look him > or her in the eye and explain that you don't tip for 'poor service'. > > Afterwards several other will probably join you in your boycott and there > will > be rapid changes. Usually it does the trick pretty dame quick. If not just > let > the little stack keep growing. When you get up to leave be sure to explain > to > the floor why his tip is also still in your pocket ;^)... > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 7, 2006, 1:34 PM Post #66 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 1:44 AM, arlo payne wrote: > > > The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty > of > > open land in Arizona, > > > There are more and more occasions occuring when I wish I was a tough guy. > Just let me be a tough guy a few times. But I'm a creampuff, there's no > help for it. > > > HB Firearms made tough guys obsolete. Unfortunately, in legal poker rooms, the troublemakers don't even have the lingering worry that someone might object and that the someone might be armed. More generally, there has been a drop in civility in society over the decades. Either that or I have gotten old, which is unlikely. Finally, TV poker has been a bad influence. Hellmuth alone is a bad influence but we see people behaving worse than Phil all the time now. Still, poker-room manners have not sunk to the level of bridge-tournament manners, for the most part. Will in New Haven -- > > ---- > * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 7, 2006, 1:46 PM Post #67 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Max Coin wrote: > That sucks dude, I play at Agua Caliente in Rancho Mirage and the things you > mentioned would not be tolerated by ythe dealers. As a matter of fact I was > reprimended for reading at the table. No joke, it,s not allowed When there were two casinos with poker in Connecticut, Foxwoods almost lost me as a player when an old jerk complained to the dealer that I was reading at the table and that it was against the rules. The dealer asked me to stop, without consulting the floorpeople. I consulted a floorperson myself and she said it is NOT a rule and then she came over and told the dealer. The nice part is that the "old jerk" who had started the whole thing had made an honest mistake in that he had seen the rule somewhere else. He apologized and I played against him for years afterword and he wouldl always greet me with "read any good books lately," which was good for a laugh between us. I went to his funeral in 2004 and his relatives were happy that one of his poker friends attended. Will in New Haven -- > > On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > > > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > > about know what I mean. > > > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > > > > > > Howard Beale > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

Gary Carson New User garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu Sep 7, 2006, 1:50 PM Post #68 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 7 2006 9:54 AM, thedudeabides wrote: > On Sep 7 2006 1:16 AM, Diane from Green Bay wrote: > > > limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, > > Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor aside > > > Please explain why, at these limits, a simple yet blatant > witholding of dealer tips wouldn't result in the desired changes within the > first hour of taking your seat at such a disorderly table. Because the offending player is probably tipping much more than some nit who thinks his tip is going to matter.  Dealer downs last 30 minutes, btw.  If it takes an hour to train a dealer you're going to spend a lot of effort in training. Gary Carson http://www.garycarson.com _______________________________________________________________ * New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 7, 2006, 1:52 PM Post #69 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 11:34 AM, Will in New Haven wrote: > Still, poker-room manners have not sunk to the level of > bridge-tournament manners, for the most part. > > Will in New Haven That's a schokeroo. Somehow I had the notion that bridge players were uber-sophisticated and genteel. HB ________________________________________________________________________  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 7, 2006, 1:58 PM Post #70 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   FaceDownAcesUp wrote: > Looks like those glory dayz past some of you donks by. I'm starting to > tear up just reading this thread. Newsflash donks-- It's a new day and > age for poker. If you can't handle the trash talk and breeches of > etiquette then you need to find a different game. > > We're the new breed of poker players and we're comin out guns blazin > with our sunglasses, Ipods, cellphones, "if it weren't for the river > there'd be no fish" tshirts, and a go-fuck urself attitude. Either sit > there and luv it or just stay home. And you better not even think about > playing table captain either; Your just as likely to get smacked in the > mouth as you are check raised if you try and pop off gangsta at my > table. I realize that your EV would be greatly improved by being barred from any game other than 5c/10c limit HE but that is what you should be risking if you don't learn better. "Popping" someone in the mouth is about jail time and you know it, not that you would have the balls to do it anyway. Will in New Haven -- No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 7, 2006, 2:09 PM Post #71 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 7 2006 11:50 AM, Gary Carson wrote: > On Sep 7 2006 9:54 AM, thedudeabides wrote: > > > On Sep 7 2006 1:16 AM, Diane from Green Bay wrote: > > > > > limits including $40-80 and it's rampant. Bellagio, Mirage, Commerce, > > > Bike, all have to deal with it. My approach is to take the floor aside > > > > > > Please explain why, at these limits, a simple yet blatant > > witholding of dealer tips wouldn't result in the desired changes within the > > first hour of taking your seat at such a disorderly table. > > Because the offending player is probably tipping much more than some nit who > thinks his tip is going to matter. This is key. The dealers don't want to antagonize the players upon whose goodwill their living depends. I am the admitted nit who is bothered by what I posted in my OP. I tip MUCH less than the other players. I've also spoken to many dealers (who know perfectly well what they should be doing) who tell me that it's just plain hard to keep everybody in line. There are so many infractions that they'd be at it constantly. Between that and not wanting to lose income this is where 'we' are at. Hence my fantasy regarding a pamphlet being written up and handed out to the players by the management. However: This thread is starting to make me think that I'm being too nitty and should just not be bothered by any of what's in my OP. I can't do anything about it anyway and it could be that my attempts have been singling me out in a negative light and are adversely impacting my action. HB ----  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"FaceDownAcesUp" New User superbeef00@yahoo.com Sep 7, 2006, 2:23 PM Post #72 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > > However: This thread is starting to make me think that I'm being too > nitty and should just not be bothered by any of what's in my OP. I can't > do anything about it anyway and it could be that my attempts have been > singling me out in a negative light and are adversely impacting my action. > > > HB Bingo, grandpa. Just walk away and let it go. You don't want any of this. No Karma

"Will_gamble" New User will_gamble2@yahoo.com Sep 7, 2006, 2:40 PM Post #73 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Some like it fast and some like it slow... For some reason I always liked watching golf because it was unpredictable and every tournament there was a collapse or near collapse on the back nine of the final day. Then Tiger came along and it changed quite a bit. Now I watch very little sports on TV and mostly stay out doors as much as possible. I still like pugilistic events and football when it is too cold to go out. And you? What sport has the pace you like? Cheers On Sep 7 2006 10:55 AM, Kenneth Sloan wrote: > PLAYING golf is a gentleman's game. > > WATCHING golf is (literally) watching grass grow - gotta do *sumthin* to > liven up the party a bit, eh? > > "Will_gamble" <will_gamble2@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Well at least the most hallowed game or etiquette remains in tact. Golf. > > Just like Bobby Jones left it. Ahem. You won't see any 20 somethings > > screaming u-da-man or getting drunk around the greens. No sir, golf is > > still a gentleman's game. Ahem. > > > -- > Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu > Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213 > University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473 > Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/ _______________________________________________________________________  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

"WuzYoungOnceToo" New User wuzyoungoncetoo@yahoo.com Sep 7, 2006, 2:45 PM Post #74 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Will in New Haven wrote: > > Firearms made tough guys obsolete. The internet replaced them with e-tough guys, who are far more numerous. > More generally, there has been a drop in civility in society over the > decades. Either that or I have gotten old, which is unlikely. Or both. While I doubt that, on balance it's quite as bad as we perceive it to be, I don't think there's any real question that there has been a noticable decline in real-world civility in this country (and probably all modern industrialized societies). While the reasons for this are many and varied, I suspect (Disclaimer: I'm not claiming any sociology credentials here) that a large part of the problem is the disappearance of consequences for anti-social behavior. In days of yore someone behaving in an excessively obnoxious manner would be at real risk of bodily harm...perhaps even death, depending on the environment...with the punisher being viewed as someone who was well within his rights to defend his honor and dignity. However, that control (which often acted as a beneficial evolutionary mechanism as well) has disappeared now that its exercise is almost certain to result in criminal and/or civil prosecution. It also seems to be true that etiquette simply isn't valued as much as it once was, even by those who are its beneficiaries. Take for example the simple courtesy of holding a door open for someone else. Back when that gesture was actually expected (men holding the door for women, for instance) it was generally responded to with a polite "thank you", or at least a slight nod of appreciation. Now it's common to have the individual for whom you're holding the door simply walk quickly past you without so much as even acknowledging your existence. These basic protocols seem to have been largely forgotten. Interestingly, Japan, with its long and bloody history of aggressive conquest, feudalism, etc. has one of the most ritualisticaly polite cultures on the planet. It's my layaman's understanding that these rituals of etiquette were largely born out of necessity in a society were a segment of the population traveled with a 3 ft. length of razor-sharp steel at their sides...and knew how to use it. In such an environment, misunderstandings in social interactions were likely to result in severe injury or death to one or both parties involved. As such it was crucial to avoid these misunderstanings, and so an elaborate system of etiquette evolved, and was strictly adhered to by those who wanted to continue with their heads attached to their necks. While I certainly wouldn't advocate returning to the days of duels and other forms of violent enforcement of manners, those practices do seem to have been damned effective. No Karma

"Will in New Haven" New User bill.reich@taylorandfrancis.com Sep 7, 2006, 2:48 PM Post #75 of 181(2141 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 7 2006 11:34 AM, Will in New Haven wrote: > > > Still, poker-room manners have not sunk to the level of > > bridge-tournament manners, for the most part. > > > > Will in New Haven > > > That's a schokeroo. Somehow I had the notion that bridge players were > uber-sophisticated and genteel. You know that I play bridge, Eleaticus, or however you spell his name, played bridge and Minus200 plays bridge. And you still thought that? Will in New Haven -- > > > > HB > > ________________________________________________________________________ > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

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