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"Auggie" New User Imperial.Palace@Rome.It Sep 6, 2006, 12:11 PM Post #26 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote in message news:1v72t3xboq.ln2@recgroups.com... > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. I think thats the thing right there... you are looking back to 12 years ago. Poker has gone through a big boom and became a fad to many and when that happens (to anything, not just poker) you end up with a whole lot of new players who have no idea what etiquette is or how they should act at the table. I'm not saying "I love it when these guys are at the table" or anything like that (though I am sure there are some who will or say that it helps them identify the fish at the table), but it has to be expected and really, with out this huge influx of yahoos poker really wouldn't be what it is today. No Karma

"XaQ Morphy" New User a1c5905@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 12:15 PM Post #27 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post > End of rant. Thanks for listening. The problem is that people are stupid, ignorant, assholes. 12 years ago poker wasn't as popular as it is today, so the only people playing were enthusiasts and the tourist-y types who were still enthusiasts in their home games but only visited casinos on vacations. Now poker is in damn near every household. As a result, the people in poker rooms represent all people rather than just those who were there as they were 12 years ago. It isn't all the young people, it isn't all the internet players, it's a mix of everything thrown together to create one big mess of a place. I consider myself lucky that the only card room within a reasonable distance from me is horrible. I really like playing live poker, but if I had to put up with some of the things described in this thread for more than a few hours I wouldn't play and I'd find another hobby. Morphy http://donkeymanifesto.blogspot.com -----  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 12:50 PM Post #28 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 9:27 AM, Kinnipak wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 1:54 AM, Howard Beale wrote: > > > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > > about know what I mean. > > > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > > > > > > Howard Beale > > Of course that's just your opinion, you could be wrong.... > > but of course, you are not... :-) > > I agree with everything you wrote. I can't imagine someone posting > something that would be against what you are saying here. How anyone can > advocate such lunacy at the tables is, well, a lunatic you might want at > the table... > > Question: > > Would it be reasonable to approach the floor B4 you sit and play and ask > them the rules are regarding table etiquette? What steps are in place to > enforce the rules? Would this put the floor on notice that they had better > keep an eye on things? It might label you as a grouch or a grump, but what > the hell? The other player punks are going to call you that anyway, so you > might see what the floor will do for you...and the others at the table... > > Just a thought. The floor people always acknowlege the way things should be. There is one fellow (and I'm sure the others would also) who assures me that if another player keeps asking to see my hand he'll put a stop to it. They'll stop the other abuse also if called over (as I urged that woman player to do in my OP) but that's all ad hoc. I would like to change the culture. As if I were capable of doing that! I'll try again. I'm going to suggest they print a pamphlet on player etiquette and actually go around to the tables and hand them out. That's my fantasy. At the limits I play, 8-16 mostly, I still don't think there is any stopping what I'm complaining about. It also works both ways sometimes. I gain information that other players (who don't pay attention don't). There are so many players who don't know when it's their turn, don't know who raised (they even ask when HU) that they probably don't notice the person banging the table or shaking their head. HB ________________________________________________________________________  * kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com No Karma

"John A. Fish" New User jrh@horsecreek.homeip.net Sep 6, 2006, 1:54 PM Post #29 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Is this something that has just erupted recently or something that has been slowly building. Or could it possibly be a regional thing? I played at an Oregon Indian Casino recently and, other than the occasional personal insults (which I rather enjoy) I saw none of which you speak. No intentional plays out of turn, no hand revelations, no IWTSTH abuse. Just bad players with shades and lots of them, some with tatoos. - J. Fish Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale > > ______________________________________________________________________ > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com > > No Karma

"DennisP" New User dennis.picht@gmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 2:09 PM Post #30 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   John A. Fish wrote: > Is this something that has just erupted recently or something that has > been slowly building. Or could it possibly be a regional thing? I > played at an Oregon Indian Casino recently and, other than the > occasional personal insults (which I rather enjoy) I saw none of which > you speak. No intentional plays out of turn, no hand revelations, no > IWTSTH abuse. Just bad players with shades and lots of them, some with > tatoos. > > - J. Fish I wonder if some of it is a Casino AZ thing as well. I've played in Los Angeles, New Orleans, Vegas, AC, Foxwoods and others and have never been asked and think I've seen it done maybe once or twice. No Karma

guy New User 43086004@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 2:38 PM Post #31 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 5 2006 11:54 PM, Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening.   > > Howard Beale Yes, I miss the "good old days" of Poker--just ask Bill Hickock. I remember the miserable, dying, smokey poker rooms of the 90's filled w/ old, cantankerous geezers and biddies. No wonder Poker rooms where closing in Las Vegas before the "boom." Now, unfortunately, too many young jaggoffs who have watched too many episodes of the WPT are now playing. I'm amazed at how many times I've been threatened (and I'm not a small person) by young idiots. Bottom line: The dealers and the floor staff must remind the players, especially new players, of proper etiquette and strictly enforce the rules. This includes discouraging the "Unabomber's" antics or other idiots' behavior at the WPT and the WSOP. Otherwise, there will be total anarchy. That said, I don't have an overly pleasant memory of the "good old days." Poker and gambling has always attracted the more unpleasant elements of society. May you NEVER "seven-out,"   ...*guy...   _______________________________________________________________ Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"alan" New User ashaw@jetson.com Sep 6, 2006, 3:07 PM Post #32 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "enough to make me not bring the bottle of Grand Marnier that I'd like to bring" Drink thiers for free. Why bring your own? Alan _____________________________________________________________________  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:42 PM Post #33 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 1:07 PM, alan wrote: > "enough to make me not bring the bottle of Grand Marnier that I'd like to > bring" > > Drink thiers for free. Why bring your own? > > > Alan No free booze in Arizona. Sigh. You should see some of the BJ players when they're told that they have to pay for their drinks. Discount 'drink tickets' ARE available but only a limited number. HB ______________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:50 PM Post #34 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 12:09 PM, DennisP wrote: > John A. Fish wrote: > > Is this something that has just erupted recently or something that has > > been slowly building. Or could it possibly be a regional thing? I > > played at an Oregon Indian Casino recently and, other than the > > occasional personal insults (which I rather enjoy) I saw none of which > > you speak. No intentional plays out of turn, no hand revelations, no > > IWTSTH abuse. Just bad players with shades and lots of them, some with > > tatoos. > > > > - J. Fish > > I wonder if some of it is a Casino AZ thing as well. I've played in > Los Angeles, New Orleans, Vegas, AC, Foxwoods and others and have never > been asked and think I've seen it done maybe once or twice. Been asked what? You've played all over and you never notice players reacting to the cards that get dealt in a manner so clear that you know they would've hit the flop or who abuse IWTSTH or act out of turn? Or goad and demean other players? And esp. not in LA for heaven's sake? LA, the home of the bitter poker burn-out? Maybe I'm too touchy/sensitive but when some blow-hard causes some tall, strong kid (happened the other day) to offer to beat him up and nothing happens, I think things have gone too far. HB ____________________________________________________________________  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

ashaw@jetson.com New User ashaw@jetson.com Sep 6, 2006, 4:51 PM Post #35 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post " No free booze in Arizona. Sigh. " Ahhh, bummer. I am primarily an AC guy so I take the free booze for granted I guess. I didn't realize there are casinos that didn't offer free drinks. Alan No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 4:52 PM Post #36 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 2:51 PM, ashaw wrote: > " No free booze in Arizona. Sigh. " > > Ahhh, bummer. I am primarily an AC guy so I take the free booze for > granted I guess. I didn't realize there are casinos that didn't offer > free drinks. > > > Alan IIRC, you can't get free drinks in LA card rooms either. HB _______________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"DennisP" New User dennis.picht@gmail.com Sep 6, 2006, 5:00 PM Post #37 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 12:09 PM, DennisP wrote: > > > John A. Fish wrote: > > > Is this something that has just erupted recently or something that has > > > been slowly building. Or could it possibly be a regional thing? I > > > played at an Oregon Indian Casino recently and, other than the > > > occasional personal insults (which I rather enjoy) I saw none of which > > > you speak. No intentional plays out of turn, no hand revelations, no > > > IWTSTH abuse. Just bad players with shades and lots of them, some with > > > tatoos. > > > > > > - J. Fish > > > > I wonder if some of it is a Casino AZ thing as well. I've played in > > Los Angeles, New Orleans, Vegas, AC, Foxwoods and others and have never > > been asked and think I've seen it done maybe once or twice. > > > Been asked what? > > You've played all over and you never notice players reacting to the cards > that get dealt in a manner so clear that you know they would've hit the > flop or who abuse IWTSTH or act out of turn? Or goad and demean other > players? And esp. not in LA for heaven's sake? LA, the home of the > bitter poker burn-out? Maybe I'm too touchy/sensitive but when some > blow-hard causes some tall, strong kid (happened the other day) to offer > to beat him up and nothing happens, I think things have gone too far. > > > HB > > ____________________________________________________________________ > looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com Oops, I missed a few words. I meant to say I haven't been asked to show a hand I was mucking at showdown. I've seen all the other stuff and agree with you. Although, I didn't see it near as bad at the Venetian or Wynn. Los Angeles and Foxwoods have been the worst, AC not great. No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 5:00 PM Post #38 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 2:56 PM, minus200(DELETETHIS) wrote: > POST OF THE YEAR WINNER !!! !! > > Every poker room manager, dealer, and floor people should be required to > read this THREE times. In one of my post recently, I talked about > players not having fun and this is part of the problem > > A couple of years ago, without meaning to I slowed rolled a hand. The > dealer dressed me down about it and quickly too. Before the next hand I > made an apology to the player and the table. When the dealers down was > over I left the tabled and in private thanked him for doing his job. He > was amazed. I then went to the manager and told him what a fine job his > dealer had done and John was amazed that I had said anything. If > dealers did this every day in every poker room then things would be much > better > > again - nice post Howard (new record coming) Thank you for the complimentary remark. I did the same thing you did when I saw, finally, a dealer tell people to keep quiet during the play of a hand. I told the floor person, and then another, who said she'd bring the topic up for discussion at the next dealer meeting. I also complimented the dealer right then and there, loudly, so that the other players might better understand the point. But there is no change. I'll probably hear from some of the lurkers here who play higher as to whether or not these are problems in those games as well. HB '100+ and away.............' :) -----  RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 5:06 PM Post #39 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 3:00 PM, DennisP wrote: > Howard Beale wrote: > > On Sep 6 2006 12:09 PM, DennisP wrote: > > > > > John A. Fish wrote: > > > > Is this something that has just erupted recently or something that has > > > > been slowly building. Or could it possibly be a regional thing? I > > > > played at an Oregon Indian Casino recently and, other than the > > > > occasional personal insults (which I rather enjoy) I saw none of which > > > > you speak. No intentional plays out of turn, no hand revelations, no > > > > IWTSTH abuse. Just bad players with shades and lots of them, some with > > > > tatoos. > > > > > > > > - J. Fish > > > > > > I wonder if some of it is a Casino AZ thing as well. I've played in > > > Los Angeles, New Orleans, Vegas, AC, Foxwoods and others and have never > > > been asked and think I've seen it done maybe once or twice. > > > > > > Been asked what? > > > > You've played all over and you never notice players reacting to the cards > > that get dealt in a manner so clear that you know they would've hit the > > flop or who abuse IWTSTH or act out of turn? Or goad and demean other > > players? And esp. not in LA for heaven's sake? LA, the home of the > > bitter poker burn-out? Maybe I'm too touchy/sensitive but when some > > blow-hard causes some tall, strong kid (happened the other day) to offer > > to beat him up and nothing happens, I think things have gone too far. > > > > > > HB > > > Oops, I missed a few words. I meant to say I haven't been asked to > show a hand I was mucking at showdown. I've seen all the other stuff > and agree with you. Although, I didn't see it near as bad at the > Venetian or Wynn. > > Los Angeles and Foxwoods have been the worst, AC not great. Actually, I was considering excepting Wynn and Venetian in my OP (I don't play much at Bellagio) because there were FAR fewer cases of all of my complaints in those rooms but I have only a visitors' experience in them. It could be that the culture and management in those 2 are the exact things that I would like to see. Good call on those poker rooms. HB ------  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

Peg Smith New User PegSmithNow@aol.comnojunk Sep 6, 2006, 5:17 PM Post #40 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote: >IIRC, you can't get free drinks in LA card rooms either. Nor in Washington State, nor in most of the reservation casinos around the country. Now that I think about it, it seems that Nevada and Atlantic City are the only places that *do* have free booze? Peg No Karma

Corinthian McVitie Keogh New User divad.ddub@retsehcnam.ca.ku Sep 6, 2006, 5:22 PM Post #41 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Costing the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars, Peg Smith said: > "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote: > > >IIRC, you can't get free drinks in LA card rooms either. > > Nor in Washington State, nor in most of the reservation casinos around > the country. Now that I think about it, it seems that Nevada and > Atlantic City are the only places that *do* have free booze? > > Peg > Don't even think about it in the UK. It's only recently you've been allowed to take your drink to the tables at all, and even now it mustn't touch the gaming tables, has to stay to a side table. -- 2 pair is not the hand to die with in PLO in a multi-way pot on a coordinated flop. [steve1127 on rgp] No Karma

Kenneth Sloan New User sloan@cis.uab.edu Sep 6, 2006, 5:33 PM Post #42 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post Porsche_Dan <43080932@recpoker.com> writes: > Another guy thought he was the amazing Kreskin and kept guessing hands, even > when he wasn't involved. Let me guess - Bay 101? -- Kenneth Sloan sloan@uab.edu Computer and Information Sciences (205) 934-2213 University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX (205) 934-5473 Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/ No Karma

"minus200(DELETETHIS)" New User "minus200(DELETETHIS)"@bellsouth.net Sep 6, 2006, 5:48 PM Post #43 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post POST OF THE YEAR WINNER !!! !! Every poker room manager, dealer, and floor people should be required to read this THREE times. In one of my post recently, I talked about players not having fun and this is part of the problem A couple of years ago, without meaning to I slowed rolled a hand. The dealer dressed me down about it and quickly too. Before the next hand I made an apology to the player and the table. When the dealers down was over I left the tabled and in private thanked him for doing his job. He was amazed. I then went to the manager and told him what a fine job his dealer had done and John was amazed that I had said anything. If dealers did this every day in every poker room then things would be much better again - nice post Howard (new record coming) Howard Beale wrote: > When I started playing in the NY clubs ~12 years ago proper pokerroom > etiquette was expected. There was no talking amongst players not involved > in the hand concerning what each active player might have. No declaring > what holding would be the nuts. No encouraging other players to make a > tough call. No coffeehousing. You were expected to act in turn and to > not reveal information that might aid active players in a hand. You were > expected to display a moderately decent demeanor and threats of violence > almost never occured. Why go on? Those of you who know what I'm talking > about know what I mean. > > Today the reality of b&m play is that all of the above no longer applies > to the vast majority of players. They are constantly declaring that they > had one of the cards when the flop comes paired or they bang the table or > make some other gesture. If they are told that they shouldn't do it they > say 'I didn't say anything!' or 'So what, they don't care about those > little cards!', etc. Coffeehousing is rampant. Asking to see mucked > hands over and over to gain information is standard. Players often > declare what the nut holding would be and tell other players that 'the pot > is so big, you have to call.' I'm witnessing more frequent invitations to > 'go outside' and outright threats. When threats are made what does the > floor do? They tell the parties involved to calm down. I think they > should be thrown the hell out. The list is endless. The thing is is that > I'm tired of being the table captain. Whenever I bring any of these > things up I'm regarded as a crank or worse. The dealers are almost no > help whatsoever. The other day a player folded his hand in a three way > pot saying 'I don't think she has the flush but I can't call.' Turning to > the remaining player he repeated 'she doesn't have the flush' over and > over. Naturally the third player called and won. The bettor was upset > and after a few minutes of lambasting the talker the dealer finally > managed a lame 'she has a point'. 10 minutes later this same bettor > pounded the table when a flop came paired. Just try and represent one of > those cards if you want to run a bluff. > > Sure, this is a rant, and I know many of you don't do these things and > others of you think some of these things are no big deal or are part of > the game but I for one have given up trying to maintain what should be > basic standards of b&m conduct amongst players who either don't know 'the > rules' or don't care. Most players don't care. Dealers (mostly) don't > care and management doesn't care. Casino Arizona took a stand a couple > months ago by eliminating the IWTSTH abuse. The new rule was that you had > to call a floor person over and explain why you wanted to see a mucked > hand. That new rule lasted a day or 2. > > There is a new paradigm and I don't think anything can be done about it. > Today's players, be they new to the game or influenced by the yakking > braying clowns on TV or internet players who haven't been raised on what I > think is proper etiquette just don't know or care. I'm just going to have > to live with it, take advantage of whatever information is revealed (after > all most players aren't paying much attention) and keep my mouth shut. > > End of rant. Thanks for listening. > > > > > Howard Beale > > ______________________________________________________________________ > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com > > -- MINUS200 "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, scotch in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" No Karma

Gary Carson New User garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu Sep 6, 2006, 6:14 PM Post #44 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 6 2006 5:33 AM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote: > > are the ones that are to be expected to train their staff (dealers) properly > and > then punish the dealers that don't follow the rules. Who do you think deserves punishment more?  Dealers who don't follow the rules?  Or drivers who don't follow the rules? Gary Carson http://www.garycarson.com _______________________________________________________________ The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"Howard Beale" New User a1695@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 6:15 PM Post #45 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 3:22 PM, Corinthian McVitie Keogh wrote: > Costing the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars, Peg Smith said: > > "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote: > > > > >IIRC, you can't get free drinks in LA card rooms either. > > > > Nor in Washington State, nor in most of the reservation casinos around > > the country. Now that I think about it, it seems that Nevada and > > Atlantic City are the only places that *do* have free booze? > > > > Peg > > > Don't even think about it in the UK. It's only recently you've been > allowed to take your drink to the tables at all, and even now it mustn't > touch the gaming tables, has to stay to a side table. > -- > 2 pair is not the hand to die with in PLO in a multi-way pot on a > coordinated flop. > > [steve1127 on rgp] I've heard that player behavior is much better in the UK. Can you confirm this? I've heard stories about American players getting a little lecture before they sit down to make sure they understand what isn't proper etiquette. HB ______________________________________________________________________  : the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com No Karma

"Edward" New User edwardr121453@aol.com Sep 6, 2006, 6:27 PM Post #46 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   Howard Beale wrote: > On Sep 6 2006 1:44 AM, arlo payne wrote: > > > The good news is some of us still pack a 38 in our boots and there is plenty > of > > open land in Arizona, > > > There are more and more occasions occuring when I wish I was a tough guy. > Just let me be a tough guy a few times. But I'm a creampuff, there's no > help for it. > > > HB Reminds me of an incident at the Desrt Inn in the early 90s. I had met some friends there for dinner and afterwards I was in the casino watching, from a distance, an orietal looking gentleman playing some very high stakes blackjack. A rather small individual with what seemed to be his wife sitting next to him watching. It looked rather obvious that the table was for him exclusively. After a little while some bleached blonde, California beach bum, body builder looking type guy in a muscle shirt sat down at his table. Nothing was said, but the oriental gentleman pulled his chips from the betting area and just sat quietly, allowing beach bum to play. After losing a hand or two, muscle head starting making remarks about the other gentleman not wanting to play with him. A few insults and accusations that the oriental fellow must think he was too good to play with Americans, that soon turned into threats by beach bum. He then threatened to drag the oriental gentleman outside and, well you can imagine. The entire episode progressed without the dealer or pit bosses saying anything. Actually, what seemed strange is that all of the casino employees had these wide grins on their faces. The oriental gentleman, who hasn't even acknowledged muscle head to this point, finally turns his head halfway towards his irate foe, and smiles himself. At this, beachbum jumps up, knocking over his chair and steps back, motioning the oriental fellow to come on and step outside, saying "lets go". What happened next was like something right out of the movies. The woman gets up and step about 5 feet to the other side. The oriental gentleman turns to his left towards muscle head and steps down from his chair. The moment that his second foot reaches the carpet, like out of nowhere, he is surrounded by two other gentleman in black suits. If these two guys were an inch tall, they were 6'9" and shoulders so wide that it looked like they would have a hard time fitting in the elevator. It became instantly obvious why the dealer and other floor persons were just smiling. not a word was spoken by the two bodyguards. The only words spoken at that point came from muscle head. He addressed the pit boss, asking if he would call security to escort him to his car. No Karma

"ContactGSW" New User a163a@webnntp.invalid Sep 6, 2006, 6:39 PM Post #47 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post On Sep 6 2006 5:17 PM, Peg Smith wrote: > "Howard Beale" <a1695@webnntp.invalid> wrote: > > >IIRC, you can't get free drinks in LA card rooms either. > > Nor in Washington State, nor in most of the reservation casinos around > the country. Now that I think about it, it seems that Nevada and > Atlantic City are the only places that *do* have free booze? > > Peg Tunica, Shreveport and the St Louis boats are places that I have had complimentary drinks. Hell they Ilse of Debris across from Helena Ark had an open bar, just tip the tender, didn't even have to be playing, we always stopped there on the way back from Tunica to top off our tanks. ContactGSW Chic, it doesn't matter what you do, you're always gonna smell like fish. ----  looking for a better newsgroup-reader? - www.recgroups.com No Karma

Tanya AKA MissT74 New User 43084303@recpoker.com Sep 6, 2006, 9:47 PM Post #48 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   On Sep 6 2006 3:14 PM, Gary Carson wrote: > > > > On Sep 6 2006 5:33 AM, Tanya AKA MissT74 wrote: > > > > > are the ones that are to be expected to train their staff (dealers) properly > > and > > then punish the dealers that don't follow the rules. > > Who do you think deserves punishment more?  Dealers who don't follow the > rules?  > Or drivers who don't follow the rules? They both deserve their punishment fairly. Driver's who don't follow the rules get their punishment in the form of tickets and dealers should get their punishment in the form of reprimands and possibly termination. Nice try Gary, darlingggg. T > > > Gary Carson > http://www.garycarson.com > > _______________________________________________________________ New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

Gary Carson New User garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu Sep 6, 2006, 11:01 PM Post #49 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post   I fake that tell all the time.  It's fun. On Sep 6 2006 9:39 PM, minus200(DELETETHIS) wrote: > This is the most reliable "tell" in poker > and the player is not inthe hand > > H > > > > You've played all over and you never notice players reacting to the cards > > that get dealt in a manner so clear that you know they would've hit the > > flop > > > > -- > MINUS200 > > "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention > of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but > rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, scotch in the > other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming > "WOO HOO what a ride!" Gary Carson http://www.garycarson.com _______________________________________________________________ The Largest Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com No Karma

"minus200(DELETETHIS)" New User "minus200(DELETETHIS)"@bellsouth.net Sep 6, 2006, 11:45 PM Post #50 of 181(1919 views) Shortcut Re: Coping with the demise of b&m etiquette [In reply to] Can't Post This is the most reliable "tell" in poker and the player is not inthe hand H > > You've played all over and you never notice players reacting to the cards > that get dealt in a manner so clear that you know they would've hit the > flop > -- MINUS200 "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, scotch in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" No Karma

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