GTech1
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43079021@recpoker.com
Sep 16, 2006, 9:46 AM
Post #16 of 16(252 views)
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| Re: Cash game question- Tough spot [In reply to] | Can't Post
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I think you've totally missed the point. He said there are straight and flush
DRAWS on the board, so as I understand the post, he flopped the nuts. I beat
the other guy into the pot.
On Sep 15 2006 11:49 PM, GrimJack808 wrote:
> I would offer a different perspective.
>
> I am going to come at this and add another fact that was not mentioned,
> but one which I can presume from your description. That fact that you
> fail to mention is the buy in. Because you mention $5/$10 NLHE, I am
> guessing in your example that the buy in is somewhere between $300 and
> $500. You are chipped up to $1200 which is a significant take from the
> table and since it is upper limit table, you probably don't have too
> many people reaching into their pockets to do $500 after $500 rebuys.
> So a 2-4x multiplier on your buy in is already a good take for the
> night.
>
> Why this is significant is because at the higher limits, it is more
> difficult than lower limits to double or triple your money. At the
> lower limits, you have a much easier time, because people will almost
> have an endless supply of $20s at a $40-$80 buy in table, and even the
> $100 tables seem to have people with an endless supply of $100s. But
> at the $500 level, it seems to drop off a bit. And the waiting list is
> never as deep.
>
> That being said, and the fact that I will assume I spent a good deal of
> the night building my stack up to this level, I would take a pass.
> Here is why.
>
> 1) Being chipped up gives you an advantage over the rest of the table.
> At the higher buy in tables, being chipped up inspires fear, if you
> know how to use it, but it also makes you a target of the short stacks.
> (And you need to play each differently). If you lose this pot, not only
> do you lose your night's earnings, AND have to rebuy, but you also lose
> the advantage of being chipped up. A little part of which at least
> helped you to accumulate a stack that large.
>
> 2) As I said, it will be difficult to re-win your money should you
> lose. The odds of your opponent (the one loose cannon that is probably
> driving the overall looseness in the game) getting up and walking out
> after he takes your enormous stack are probably pretty good. As soon
> as he is gone, you are probably up against rocks and will never be able
> to make back your double buy-in, let alone recoup the winnings that are
> in front of you. Remember the rake is constantly taking chips off the
> table. In a tight game, these really add up quickly.
>
> 3) If you are a better poker player than this loose cannon, you will
> have plenty of opportunity to outplay him so long as he stays at the
> table, for far better odds than the less than 60/40 you MAY be
> currently getting. I personally would patiently wait to spring a trap
> on him when I have him dead to say a runner-runner draw.
>
> 4) Finally, the opportunity to triple or quad up your money when you
> put it in the pot with a set is so prevalent. Why would you waste it
> on getting somewhere near 50/50 on your investment. You are risking
> 1200 to win 1400. I think there will be other times when you have a
> more solid lock on winning...and at the same time winning more...that
> passing here would make sense.
>
> While I believe a set is a strong hand, it is only strong when you
> don't have an overwhelming board. You are correct to make this call
> when you don't have a OESFD on the board. When you do have an OESFD on
> the board, this is the time (one of the only times) you need to back
> off and not play so aggressively.
>
> This is one of the angles that the overly aggressive donk has against
> players that play well. Their naked aggression can get solid players
> to fold slightly winning hands in the present, but it is the long term
> prospect of being able to outplay the overly aggressive donk that keeps
> the solid players at the table biding their time and waiting for the
> proper opportunity to spring their trap. At less than 60/40, it isn't
> much of a trap. Also from your scenario, you could already be beat by
> the straight flush and be drawing dead even if you make your full
> house.
>
> >From the way you describe the play, I would think that you are about
> 10% that he already has you beat with a str, a flush or a str fl. 90%
> he probably doesn't have it, but this situation is exactly the trap the
> overly aggressive donk is trying to spring on you. When you flop a
> straight flush, you can't go all in. Your solid play would alert
> people who were cognizant of your solid play that you had something
> worth going all in. This is the trap you set as a solid player and it
> lets you steal even when you have nothing. Now the overly aggressive
> donk has the opposite going for them. If they flop a straight flush
> and they go all in, their previous loose play is will most likely get
> then 2 or more callers. Some people will call with a set, some may
> even call with an over-pair.
> Sometimes you choose to lose a battle in order to win a war. Let this
> one go, and bide your time. You will have a better opportunity to
> relieve the foe of his chips in a later hand.
>
> Now I say all of this under the presumption that your opponent has
> already gone all-in in front of you. And the fact that he could
> already have the straight flush, or any hand that has you beat. If
> there are only 2 to a OESFD on board (meaning he can't already have
> it), then perhaps I see another card for less than my full stack to see
> if I can make a full house without the card making him his straight
> flush.
>
> In my opinion, the situation you describe is tantamount to someone who
> has Kings, the flop comes AJJ and you ask whether you should fold the
> same chipped up stack to an overly aggressive donk in front or behind
> you that goes all in for his entire stack. There are so many ways you
> can already be beat, of course you fold. Their position doesn't really
> matter in my opinion. In these situations, their style of play wins,
> not necessarily their hand. You are being asked to call off your
> entire stack that you spent all day creating. I would never call off
> such a large stack without the nuts.
>
> That's my opinion and my reasoning. It's not necessarily correct.
>
> Good Luck! You will face this situation if you keep playing.
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>
> MastaC707 wrote:
> > Hey all, I am interested in hearing some peoples opinions who play cash
> > games.
> > Because I honestly dont know how I would feel about this situation if I came
> > upon it.
> >
> > Lets say you are playing a NLHE cash game, smaller stakes say $5\$10
> > blinds.
> > Its you and one other person in the pot, you both have large stacks, say
> > about
> > $1200 each. Pot is around $200 from pre flop action. You can choose your
> > position, first, last, does it matter in this situation? Say you flop top
> > set
> > (or trips, would you play it the same?) on the board is straight and flush
> > draws. Youre opponent goes all in for his last $1200. After playing with him
> > for
> > a while you know he pushes all in quite often with any draw, epically 4 to
> > the
> > flush or an open ended straight draw. You know he likes to bet for value
> > with
> > sets and made hands so you can pretty comfortably rule out his having two
> > pair
> > or a lower set. Do you call? Do you take the chance on a coin flip type
> > situation, if he has an open-ended straight flush draw you have just a small
> > lead with 2 cards to come, does it matter to you if he has one draw over the
> > other? (I.E. would call if you knew he only had straight draw as opposed to
> > flush draw.) In tournament play it is an easy call. In cash games, you dont
> > have
> > to take those unnecessary risks, so even though you know you are ahead, you
> > are
> > still in a lot of trouble. You havent invested much into the pot. Just
> > curious.
> > Havent faced this situation, but it can very well happen. Do you risk your
> > money
> > rite there or do you fold and try to pick a spot where you are in less
> > danger.
> > It does make a huge difference that you are calling so much, as opposed to
> > betting that much. I would really like the input from some of the bigger
> > stakes
> > (hopefully more experienced and success full) cash game players.
> >
> > Masta C--
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
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